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England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

bbc.co.uk

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Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#91

Post by belter »

libertine wrote: post #71
belter wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cases in Portugal are staying stable neither growing or diminishing. Looking at the curve for deaths there seems to be no correlation between deaths and the vaccination program. https://expresso.pt/coronavirus/2021-09-10-Covid-19.-O-oitav...

I can't even take your comment seriously.

Look at the active cases graph starting at 8 Aug and the line to latest 10 of Sep. In approximately 45,000 cases there is a variation of -/+ 2000 is that not basically a straight line?

Also what I mean by there is no correlation between deaths and the vaccination program, and there, I could have been a bit clear in my explanation, is the following:

Again looking at the active cases diagram between 3 of March and 15 of April you get a massive peak and a massive drop. That is the expected behavior of mathematical models, and a runways virus propagating to several hosts. The vaccination program as seen in the graph here: "A que ritmo estamos a vacinar?" https://www.publico.pt/interactivo/vacina-covid-19

started in 28 Dec linear grow, a peak 11 July where more people on holidays have the time do take the vaccine and continues in for with a large intensity of 60,000 this 8 Sept.

So I am calling attention to very quick and strong record of active cases seen within 2 to 3 months in the active cases diagram versus the gradual vaccination program.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#92

Post by Retric »

quotemstr wrote: post #89
paul_f wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the downvotes. This is a legitimate distinction.

Discussions generally don't sway people. When someone has a fixed worldview and you present facts that undermine that worldview, he perceives you as a threat (like he would a large bear) and reacts to those facts with the same fight-or-flight response that threats generally elicit. Online, this fight-or-flight response manifests as people downvoting you, flagging you, doxxing you, and so on for presenting hard-to-ref…

It’s not about disagreeing with them. I generally downvote pedantic exceptions because you should respond to an argument in the most generous terms. largely proving your identity did apply to the examples given but doesn’t address the thrust of their argument.

Showing an ID to drink or get a senior discount isn’t about identifying you specifically just something about you and that is completely accepted by the general public. Show your military ID to get a discount is another.

The issue I take with such pedantic exceptions is they derail the thread.

Edit: This is a far more direct response which I upvoted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28501323

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#93

Post by NoblePublius »

azalemeth wrote: post #44
cstross wrote: post #2

Note this is specific to England . Other countries in the UK are following their own course -- the Scottish government agreed in principle to introduce vaccine passports as of a week ago and will require them for entry to large venues from October 1st: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccine-passports-requir... The NHS is a fully devolved issue, with separate NHS organizations in Wales, England, Northern Ireland,…

This is very true. I personally find it mad that the UK is the nation with the highest covid infection rate in western europe, with ~30k new cases/day. Long covid is a real, debilitating condition and if anything is going to affect the young -- who are least vaccinated -- the most, thus creating a long-term disease burden and morbidity cost on both those individuals and the country as a whole. Ignoring the human cost…

How do you distinguish between the symptoms of “long covid” from the effects of being locked inside for a year? There have been over a billion covid infections globally (assume confirmed cases are 1/5 infections, which is a low estimate according to John’s Hopkins) so if “long covid” is so real, where are all these sufferers? If 1% have long covid, there should be at least ten million sufferers.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#94

Post by thepasswordis »

The thing that people seem to be ignoring in all of this is that people like having power.

The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but unless you are successful at completely shutting down travel to the rest of the world: not really that helpful to the people who haven't taken them. In fact, there is an argument for how over-vaccinating will be harmful to the unvaccinated.

If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid. You just don't get as sick. The vaccine protects you.

So why these vaccine mandates? Vaccine passports? Etc.

Because people simply enjoy the act of getting to tell others what to do. Anybody who has ever interacted with an HOA will be familiar with this.

The data shows that these do not have a positive effect, but the people enacting them enjoy it, and the people who have found themselves on the enforcment side of the political divide enjoy the feeling of righteousness they experience because of them.

I can’t reply to everybody making the same incorrect point. Here is the graph of Texas’s hospital utilization: https://covid-texas.csullender.com/

(Luckily Texas gives us great data!).

The graph here you are looking for is the one that shows the percentage of staffed beds and icu beds occupied. Notice that it is entirely flat.

Here’s a really interesting statistic that suggests even less effectiveness of these control measures: the vaccines appear to have had no effect on hospital utilization.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#95

Post by _dain_ »

quotemstr wrote: post #82
bryanlarsen wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's wrong. The vaccine is moderately effective at preventing the spread of early variants. It's not very effective at preventing the spread of Delta from an infected person, but it's quite effective (but far from perfect) at preventing people from getting infected in the first place, thus overall significantly slowing spread . https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

Vaccine passport proponents routinely cite "slowing [the] spread" as a reason to impose vaccination requirements despite discoveries earlier this year showing that vaccinated individuals can still spread the disease. In light of these discoveries, vaccine passports and other coercive measures don't make any dense. Delta has an R value of 8. That makes it one of the most infectious diseases we know about. Future varia…

>Delta has an R value of 8

no it doesn't.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#96

Post by thepasswordis »

tchalla wrote: post #39

> "I've never liked the idea of saying to people you must show your papers or something to do what is just an everyday activity, but we were right to properly look at it. We regularly show papers for everyday activities - library card for reading books, ID for a hotel stay, driving license for driving a car, ID to pickup a parcel etc.

Would you be okay with a card showing your religious affiliation before being allowed into a crowded public space? Or before being allowed to rent a truck, or buy fertilizer?

Even though this would likely make the world safer: I wouldn't, and even though it wouldn't prevent me from doing anything, I would still resist it.

But it would increase my safety, even though it would inconvenience some other people based on the choices that they have made.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#97

Post by libertine »

rszfa100 wrote: post #87
libertine wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't even take your comment seriously.

Why? The graph under "Total de mortes" shows that the number of fatalities is higher right now than last year (when no one was vaccinated). We don't know yet if the clearly seasonal winter outbreak will be the same as last year (or worse).

First the graph of newly daily cases is trending downward since July, why did the he say they are not diminishing? If you compare to last year they were trending upward.

If this is going to keep going down, sideways, or up we have no idea.

About the "Total de Mortes", today you have more then double the amount of active cases, why are you ignoring that?

>We don't know yet if the clearly seasonal winter outbreak will be the same as last year (or worse).

Yes, but to say vaccines aren't doing anything it's absurd.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#98

Post by TeeMassive »

tchalla wrote: post #39

> "I've never liked the idea of saying to people you must show your papers or something to do what is just an everyday activity, but we were right to properly look at it. We regularly show papers for everyday activities - library card for reading books, ID for a hotel stay, driving license for driving a car, ID to pickup a parcel etc.

Those IDs are not meant to 1) show your medical history which is a protected right and 2) is used as a way to coerce a medical intervention which is against free and informed consent.

Forcing medical interventions in the name of the public good has always degenerated in the worse atrocities and abuses in history.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#99

Post by jjgreen »

_Microft wrote: post #38
refurb wrote: post #20

I haven’t seen much about this but I assume the passport systems are a potentially huge security risk. The ones I’ve seen require personal identifying information (yet again) which you know is stored in a new database (again).

> which you know is stored in a new database (again). The (european) vaccination certificates include all necessary information in a QR code that is stored locally, either digitally in an app or as actual print-out of the QR code. You only have to show an id card to proof that this QR code belongs to you then (it also encodes your full name and date of birth for making the connection).

Wouldn't work in the UK since we don't have ID cards.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#100

Post by mapme »

thepasswordis wrote: post #94

The thing that people seem to be ignoring in all of this is that people like having power. The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but unless you are successful at completely shutting down travel to the rest of the world: not really that helpful to the people who haven't taken them. In fact, there is an argument for how over-vaccinating will be harmful to the unvaccinated. If you're vaccinated, you can still get a…

For me the major point of vaccinating others is ensuring hospitals are not overwhelmed and have enough capacity to treat other patients and perform elective procedures.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2021/...

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