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England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

bbc.co.uk

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Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#61

Post by MatteoFrigo »

azalemeth wrote: post #44
cstross wrote: post #2

Note this is specific to England . Other countries in the UK are following their own course -- the Scottish government agreed in principle to introduce vaccine passports as of a week ago and will require them for entry to large venues from October 1st: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccine-passports-requir... The NHS is a fully devolved issue, with separate NHS organizations in Wales, England, Northern Ireland,…

This is very true. I personally find it mad that the UK is the nation with the highest covid infection rate in western europe, with ~30k new cases/day. Long covid is a real, debilitating condition and if anything is going to affect the young -- who are least vaccinated -- the most, thus creating a long-term disease burden and morbidity cost on both those individuals and the country as a whole. Ignoring the human cost…

You have the right to be unhappy. However, looking at the latest data from the UK at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/..., it is not clear whether pushing for more vaccines will change the situation in any way that makes you happy.

For example, that report says that 97% of the blood donors has some kind of antibodies, either from vaccine or previous infection. This number is almost 100% for older people. Maybe blood donors are not representative of the population, but if they are, it's not obvious that the extra 3% buys you anything, even if you could capture it.

For some age groups (Table 4), the vaccinated are more likely to be infected than the unvaccinated. I am sure there are good reasons for this, e.g. people more at risk may be more likely to be vaccinated, but whatever the reason is, the vaccine does not seem to be powerful enough to compensate for the extra risk.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#62

Post by tinus_hn »

jmull wrote: post #35
tinus_hn wrote: post #6

As they should be, considering that the vaccines do not stop people from getting infected and infecting others. Making sure there are only vaccinated people in a bar does not mean the people inside can’t get infected so this measure does not help achieve that goal.

Thanks for the Covid misinformation, buddy! Thanks in part to your diligent work, many people will get sick and die! Give yourself a pay on the back! And whatever you do, suppress this: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effective...

> For people who are vaccinated and still get infected (i.e., “breakthrough infections”), there is a risk of transmission to others.

Not sure why you’d want to suppress that truth. It’s just a little vague on how big the chances are.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#63

Post by throwaway316943 »

tinus_hn wrote: post #8
sofixa wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is, the number of vaccinations in France jumped remarkably after vaccine passports were made mandatory for cinemas, theatres, restaurants, etc. Considering that's the main goal of such policies, it seems like a success. And yes, the main point is to limit hospitalisations, because they're the main limiting factor ( at least in France, but probably in most other developed countries as well).

The same brand of ‘successes’ can be achieved by banning alcohol, tobacco, fast food or whatever vice you want.

Those who are downvoting this are being blatantly disingenuous. Tobacco alone kills over 480,000 people per year in the US. There is a very strong case for banning it if your fundamental concern is the health of others and the upkeep of the health system.

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/heal...

Alcohol kills another 95,000 per year in the US

https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-death...

Obesity related deaths are around 300,000 per year.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/192032

No one can honestly look at these figures and come away with with the opinion that we need to protect the unvaccinated from themselves through mandates while turning a blind eye to these other self inflicted diseases. Argue for or against limiting personal choice to preserve health but be prepared to defend your position on all of these fronts.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#64

Post by Proven »

azalemeth wrote: post #44
cstross wrote: post #2

Note this is specific to England . Other countries in the UK are following their own course -- the Scottish government agreed in principle to introduce vaccine passports as of a week ago and will require them for entry to large venues from October 1st: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccine-passports-requir... The NHS is a fully devolved issue, with separate NHS organizations in Wales, England, Northern Ireland,…

This is very true. I personally find it mad that the UK is the nation with the highest covid infection rate in western europe, with ~30k new cases/day. Long covid is a real, debilitating condition and if anything is going to affect the young -- who are least vaccinated -- the most, thus creating a long-term disease burden and morbidity cost on both those individuals and the country as a whole. Ignoring the human cost…

You have the right to not go to nightclubs, or get your 3rd shot and double-mask before you do, if you like.

What exactly are you mad at? That the government won't send its goons to weld your doors?

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#65

Post by roenxi »

tchalla wrote: post #39

> "I've never liked the idea of saying to people you must show your papers or something to do what is just an everyday activity, but we were right to properly look at it. We regularly show papers for everyday activities - library card for reading books, ID for a hotel stay, driving license for driving a car, ID to pickup a parcel etc.

But those are largely proving your identity in a situation where you wish to identify yourself.

Proving an unrelated fact about yourself solely because the government thinks so is a different thing.

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#66

Post by 0-_-0 »

libertine wrote: post #31
ddxxdd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I checked, the top 3 countries in terms of vaccination rates are also the top 3 countries in terms of number of active covid cases. Israel is #1 in vaccination rates and #1 in daily cases.

I don't know where you getting that information, last time I checked Israel wasn't even in the top10 countries. Last week Portugal was number 2, and our cases have been dropping (which is a good sign for winter, though it's still early), also deaths and hospitalizations are nowhere near pre-vaccine numbers. We even had breakthrough cases in homes and care centers for the elderly, the majority seem to be mildly sympto…

According to https://ourworldindata.org/ Israel is #4 in COVID cases right now (856.81/M) and #5 in vaccine doses per 100 people (163.74)

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#67

Post by 0-_-0 »

martin8412 wrote: post #24
ddxxdd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I checked, the top 3 countries in terms of vaccination rates are also the top 3 countries in terms of number of active covid cases. Israel is #1 in vaccination rates and #1 in daily cases.

That must have been a while ago, because Israel is nowhere near top in vaccination rate anymore. They had a fast rollout, but are now stuck at around 61%.. Meanwhile, western Europe is around 80-90% vaccinated

Europe: 102.58 doses per 100

Israel: 163.74 doses per 100 (#5 in the world)

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#68

Post by belter »

libertine wrote: post #31
ddxxdd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I checked, the top 3 countries in terms of vaccination rates are also the top 3 countries in terms of number of active covid cases. Israel is #1 in vaccination rates and #1 in daily cases.

I don't know where you getting that information, last time I checked Israel wasn't even in the top10 countries. Last week Portugal was number 2, and our cases have been dropping (which is a good sign for winter, though it's still early), also deaths and hospitalizations are nowhere near pre-vaccine numbers. We even had breakthrough cases in homes and care centers for the elderly, the majority seem to be mildly sympto…

Cases in Portugal are staying stable neither growing or diminishing. Looking at the curve for deaths there seems to be no correlation between deaths and the vaccination program.

https://expresso.pt/coronavirus/2021-09-10-Covid-19.-O-oitav...

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#69

Post by libertine »

0-_-0 wrote: post #66
libertine wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you getting that information, last time I checked Israel wasn't even in the top10 countries. Last week Portugal was number 2, and our cases have been dropping (which is a good sign for winter, though it's still early), also deaths and hospitalizations are nowhere near pre-vaccine numbers. We even had breakthrough cases in homes and care centers for the elderly, the majority seem to be mildly sympto…

According to https://ourworldindata.org/ Israel is #4 in COVID cases right now (856.81/M) and #5 in vaccine doses per 100 people (163.74)

Well maybe vaccine doses per 100 people isn't the best benchmark, especially if they are already giving 3rd doses - it's way more important the share of full vaccination of the total population, because the goal is to get the imune system primed.

The reality is that Israel only has 63% of their population fully vaccinated, even if they keep giving extra doses, a large slice is still not vaccinated (people under 59 apparently).

Re: England vaccine passport plans ditched, health secretary says

#70

Post by bryanlarsen »

NomeChomsky wrote: post #3

Good. There is no evidence to support them. You can still transmit the virus whilst double vaccinated. They do not slow spread only hospitalisation.

That's wrong. The vaccine is moderately effective at preventing the spread of early variants. It's not very effective at preventing the spread of Delta from an infected person, but it's quite effective (but far from perfect) at preventing people from getting infected in the first place, thus overall significantly slowing spread .

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

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