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Facebook reportedly researching ways to use encrypted WhatsApp messages for ads

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Re: Facebook reportedly researching ways to use encrypted WhatsApp messages for ads

#91

Post by est31 »

paxys wrote: post #32

People are discussing a lot of advanced encryption in this thread, but the much more simpler explanation is that they will do the ad processing client side where the messages are already in plain text.

Also people forget that facebook gets all the metadata. The encryption leaves the length of the messages intact as well as the identities of both parties. A conversation with someone who is known to be a hairdresser is likely about making an appointment, so maybe the person is interested in ads about hair products. A conversation with a midwife might yield in ads for baby products.

Re: Facebook reportedly researching ways to use encrypted WhatsApp messages for ads

#92

Post by [deleted] »

my_usernam3 wrote: post #77
paxys wrote: post #32

People are discussing a lot of advanced encryption in this thread, but the much more simpler explanation is that they will do the ad processing client side where the messages are already in plain text.

Still big red flag to me! If I'm secretly talking to someone about health concerns I might have, the last thing I want is facebook sending me ads for medicine about that concern. "But we didn't read you messages, only took keywords" sounds like a child's excuse for bad behavior

[deleted]

Re: Facebook reportedly researching ways to use encrypted WhatsApp messages for ads

#93

Post by LeifCarrotson »

monetus wrote: post #86
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we? As Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of government -- except for all the others which have been tried. Similarly, capitalism is the worst form of economics -- except for all the others which have been tried. I mean, it's obvious to an external observer that a prisoner's dilemma, sub-optimal Nash equilibrium, or other coordination problem can best be solved by all sides cooperating. But the reason th…

I think about how we live in an era of information, not communication, frequently. Have you heard of pol.is or vtaiwan? https://pol.is/home https://info.vtaiwan.tw I have a lot of hope, as well as paranoia, that implementations of semantic analysis in those direct referendum/republic programs will generate more rational collective action.

I had not heard of those, thanks for sharing. I agree that informative tech that allows more rational collective action is the way forward, but I also share your paranoia that semantic analysis will be another hazard that empowers actors with misaligned goals.

Re: Facebook reportedly researching ways to use encrypted WhatsApp messages for ads

#94

Post by rvbissell »

paxys wrote: post #29
jonathanlydall wrote: post #15

While from a technology point of view this is very interesting, I would really prefer an option to pay a reasonable subscription fee to have adverts turned off for me. Before Facebook bought WhatsApp it actually used to require a small annual fee, but it was removed. Alas, I fear that as tends be the case with advertising companies, they know that the willing to pay users are the most valuable advert audience, so are…

I keep telling people that YouTube Premium is the most cost effective membership there is, and they look at me like I'm crazy. Since I got it YouTube has become a service I genuinely love.

I cancelled mine, because the ads provide enough friction to keep me from spending too much time there.

Re: Facebook reportedly researching ways to use encrypted WhatsApp messages for ads

#95

Post by JKCalhoun »

emsy wrote: post #73
JKCalhoun wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Form I would fill out: [√] Doesn't like ads.

I mean I get it. I got to know somewhere that something I’m interested in buying exists. However, there has to be a better system then tracking my every move online and then force-feeding me ads about crappy products that I don’t like or worse, outright scams. I even watch videos on youtube about products I’m interested in VOLUNTARILY. How is this a billion dollar industry?

> I got to know somewhere that something I’m interested in buying exists.

I even have a problem with that. It's hard to put into words — I'm put off even by the idea that I am to be treated as a consumer. I am even slightly embarrassed when I consume a non-necessity.

I don't like door-to-door salespersons. It's not because they are pushy that I dislike them but because they are unbidden. An unsolicited ad is a door-to-door salesperson — even if it is for a thing I wanted.

When I want something, I feel I should be the one to act to seek the thing out. The truth is, I likely consume more than I should and prefer that there be friction.

Re: Facebook reportedly researching ways to use encrypted WhatsApp messages for ads

#96

Post by satysin »

andai wrote: post #70
satysin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. They don't have to "break" the E2EE design. Simply make use of the "end device" to analyse the contents and feed that into their advertising profile for the user(s). TBH I am surprised they're not already doing that?

Wouldn't that still be a privacy violation? The messages themselves would be protected, but advertising companies would receive a constant stream of keywords or categories over time.

IMHO yes it would be a violation but WhatsApp would technically still be end to end encrypted.

Do all the data mining and pattern matching on the device then upload some blob of data whenever needed to better shape the advertising profile.

Like I said I am honestly surprised this is not what Facebook have been doing since the day they bought WhatsApp. I thought this was the reason they bought them. Sure the messages are all encrypted in the air and on their servers (theoretically anyway) but on the device is free rein and always has been.

I can see (at least) two potential issues doing this though.

First is obviously the resources of a phone vs the super clusters they have chugging away in Facebook data centers.

Second is it would mean their precious data mining algorithms would need to be built into the app and on the device. This may be a huge intellectual property concern for them as it wouldn't take long for people to extract that no matter how obfuscated they try to make it. Of course that also depends on if it is even possible to get it onto a phone in the first place in a useful way.

Re: Facebook reportedly researching ways to use encrypted WhatsApp messages for ads

#97

Post by tmcb »

bovine3dom wrote: post #28
tmcb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but if they can generate meaningful targeted advertising from encrypted data, that would be pretty a strong indicator that the encryption method is not strong enough. Ideally, encrypted data must be indistinguishable from random noise.

As another comment mentioned, they're talking about using a technique that allows you to perform computations on encrypted data, with encrypted results output - the thing doing the computation never sees any decrypted data. So they could target advertisements but, as far as I can tell, they wouldn't be able to know which advertisements were served ... until the phone makes a request to download them, which seems to m…

Oh, thank you, I should have paid more attention to the original article as well.

As a complete layman on the topic, I am kind of wary of (fully) homomorphic encryption. Not sure if I understand it right, but it seems to me that anybody in possession of the ciphertext would be able to run it through an arbitrary circuit, even if the result is encrypted and they cannot read it; in theory it would be vulnerable to MITM attacks.

For instance, say Facebook servers are compromised (yes, I know…) and an attacker then runs their own version of the recommendation algorithm instead, presenting fake ads to people that mention specific terms.

I am certainly several steps behind any academic discussions on the subject, so if that is not a problem I am curious to know why.

Re: Facebook reportedly researching ways to use encrypted WhatsApp messages for ads

#98

Post by heavyset_go »

beauHD wrote: post #58

I just wish AdTech companies had a system where you could fill out an extensive form, where you openly state what your preferences are, because the targeting seems very skewed and wrong, at least from what I've experienced. Facebook thinks I like rock music, but I really like house music. Facebook thinks I eat meat, but I am a vegan. Facebook thinks I like cars, but I don't even drive. There's no way of telling Faceb…

> Facebook thinks I like rock music, but I really like house music. Facebook thinks I eat meat, but I am a vegan. Facebook thinks I like cars, but I don't even drive. There's no way of telling Facebook what my tastes and lifestyle preferences even are.

Advertisers can also choose to target you via Facebook, even if you aren't in their apparent target demographic. I think this issue is a combination of both innaccurate and accurate targeted advertising.

Re: Facebook reportedly researching ways to use encrypted WhatsApp messages for ads

#99

Post by treeman79 »

beauHD wrote: post #58

I just wish AdTech companies had a system where you could fill out an extensive form, where you openly state what your preferences are, because the targeting seems very skewed and wrong, at least from what I've experienced. Facebook thinks I like rock music, but I really like house music. Facebook thinks I eat meat, but I am a vegan. Facebook thinks I like cars, but I don't even drive. There's no way of telling Faceb…

Someone in your network, Ethernet sort, likes those things. Either at home or at work.

Lots of targeting is based on IP Adresss not device.

Re: Facebook reportedly researching ways to use encrypted WhatsApp messages for ads

#100

Post by i-848181-neev »

How I’m using WhatsApp today: because I have to in order to communicate with businesses and contacts that are required to use it in their home countries.

Ínstalled with no permissions to an address book, camera or mic. Somewhat of a pain that I can’t save contacts but at least it’s still possible to communicate.

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