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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#91

Post by stickfigure »

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Residents of the US have self-selected into two cohorts:

1) People that will get resistance via vaccines

2) People that will get resistance via infection

Some 30-40% of the US population decided on #2. Roughly 0.7% of them will die because of that decision, but this is exactly what they are asking for! If you are in cohort #1, you really don't have a lot to worry about from the virus. Why are you denying people the consequences of their decisions?

Yes, the medical system will be briefly overrun, and it would be a terrible time to need hospitalization. That's a good argument for getting it over as quickly as possible! The delta variant is estimated to have an R0 of 8-10. Let it rip and the surge will be over in weeks.

What about the children? Serious negative effects on kids seem to be extraordinarily rare. The kids will be fine.

I am only half joking here. "We live in a society" cuts both ways - we have to respect the general health of everyone, but we also have to respect the explicit wishes of a huge portion of the population - almost a third. The good news is that almost exclusively, they're going to be the ones dying. I can live with that.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#92

Post by tzs »

alecst wrote: post #14
wdhilliard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is that the whole thing is based on old data and a false premise that life is safe when vaccinated people are only around vaccinated people. We know this is slightly more true than among the unvaccinated, but only by about 40%. This is real data. Fears of privacy implications: Tracking data/metadata, How data is recorded, How long are records kept. What other data is linked to vaccination checks? Fears of…

Great reply, thank you. I don't want to get into a long argument, but a lot of what you say hinges on that 40% number. I'd like to know what that refers to. My reply to that 40% number: I thought that vaccines made you something like 20x less likely to end up in the hospital from coronavirus (widely cited as 95% protective.) And that unvaccinated people spread at 5x the rate of the vaccinated ones. https://www.nature…

There was some CDC data published recently on breakthrough infections in the US (I don't have a better site--saw it somewhere on Apple New+). It worked out to 4 COVID hospitalizations or deaths per 100k.

For comparison, that's about twice the US death rate due to flu in 2019, and about 1/40th the US death rate due to COVID before vaccinations were available (and before the delta variant was in the US). That's about 10x better than death rate pre-vaccination in the state that had the lowest death rate (Hawaii).

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#93

Post by thinkharderdev »

coding123 wrote: post #24
alecst wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great reply, thank you. I don't want to get into a long argument, but a lot of what you say hinges on that 40% number. I'd like to know what that refers to. My reply to that 40% number: I thought that vaccines made you something like 20x less likely to end up in the hospital from coronavirus (widely cited as 95% protective.) And that unvaccinated people spread at 5x the rate of the vaccinated ones. https://www.nature…

It's hardly capturing anything. People in HN complained a few months back that after they got the vaccine they felt like they suddenly had long covid. The CDC stopped measuring outcomes for vaccinated people in May. Isreal's data is showing things that are not published in the United States. Policy in the United States is not based on Isreal's data. https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/quick-update-on-the-isra... Basi…

This could be considered misinformation because it is misinformation. We can in fact measure these things and the mRNA vaccines have been demonstrated to generated a robust immune response including memory B cells:

https://immunology.sciencemag.org/content/6/58/eabi6950 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6529/eabf4063

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#94

Post by sprafa »

By not getting vaccinated you are pushing the onus of responsibility to society.

When you occupy a bed in a hospital for a preventable disease (like covid post-vaccine) you are a detriment to society. You are occupying precious resources because you were dumb. Just dumb. No ifs or buts - we need to start calling out stupidity again.

We already handle people occupying hospital resources with self inflicted diseases, like lung cancer or liver trouble, by taxing the shit out of cigarettes and liquor (in countries where universal healthcare is a thing). We can’t put a covid tax on people I guess, so we might as well mandate vaccinations for everything we can.

People who believe vaccines aren’t at least reducing mortality by 10x to 100x can just maintain their stupidity and become pariahs to society. I idgaf anymore. These people are dumb and I won’t waste another breath defending them. It is immediately proven from vaccination campaigns globally that the impact vaccines have is at least 10x reduction in mortality. Vaccines would be worth it even if they killed 1/2 of the numbers of covid, bout they don’t. They are a HUGE reduction.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#95

Post by AndrewBissell »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #77
analyte123 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eradication is not happening. You might as well be talking about eradicating the flu, which is another contagious respiratory virus that rapidly mutates and is not completely controlled by vaccines. This was obvious even a month ago, when over 10% of a naval ship tested positive for Covid despite every single person being fully vaccinated [1]. I only hope that the "end game" is not permanent restrictions on travel, m…

You're 100% right. This isn't Ebola or SARS where everyone who gets sick has obvious symptoms and becomes gravely ill. Asymptomatic carriers and transference to other animals like birds and cattle will ensure that it will persist in our population permanently. The good news is that viruses tend to get less dangerous over time. Death of the host provides selective pressure against those variants. Syphilis used to be e…

> The good news is that viruses tend to get less dangerous over time.

One notable exception was Marek's disease in chickens, where the widespread administration of leaky vaccines (which suppressed symptoms and complications but not transmission) led to the breeding of hotter and hotter strains in the vaccinated flocks, which became more lethal to unvaccinated chickens.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#97

Post by giantg2 »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #87
giantg2 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For #2, if you have a medical condition that prevents you from receiving the vaccine it would require either falsified vaccine cards to show you as complying with the mandate, or disclosure of a/the medical condition that prevents you from getting it. Effectively, this small minority is finding themselves in a position that pits their medical privacy of their underlying medical conditions against the requirement to p…

> For #2, if you have a medical condition that prevents you from receiving the vaccine it would require either falsified vaccine cards to show you as complying with the mandate. IMO, people with legitimate medical conditions should just be granted excelsior passes, the same as those who are vaccinated. There's few enough people with these conditions that it shouldn't be a health issue. Religious exemptions are the tr…

Yeah, issuing the pass that doesn't differentiate between vaccinated and excluded would prevent almost all of the concern. Some people do have concerns about disclosuring health info to the government. Although the government could just buy the "anonymous" medical records and figure them out if they really wanted to.

Yeah, religious exclusions get tricky. Really the whole thing can be tricky because it comes down to philosophical beliefs of what should be mandated and for whom.

Edit: Why so many downvotes without reply?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#98

Post by cududa »

benmmurphy wrote: post #43

Surely this is a violation of civil rights law. The law is going to have a disparate impact on minority groups since there is a difference in vaccination rates between different racial groups. The law doesn't seem narrowly scoped to achieve a specific compelling government interest. People from the government seem to be claiming this is being used to incentivise vaccine uptake. If the government made the claim that t…

Wrong. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#99

Post by alecst »

BrianOnHN wrote: post #19
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Meta: What do you think about the timestamps on the children comments here? So many/much responses in <1min from the parent comment? GPT-3 manipulation?

Mine is one of those suspicious comments.

I replied to this article when it was first published yesterday. It looks like the whole thread got copied over when it was posted a second time.

Unless, of course, you think I am GPT-3. Can't rule it out.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#100

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

ysavir wrote: post #86
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's putting a scarlet letter on these people and shaming them for making their own choice about their own bodies. I think we've determined from other issues that "separate but equal" isn't actually equal. That absolutely applies here.

> It's putting a scarlet letter on these people and shaming them for making their own choice about their own bodies. Yes, that's how de Blasio phrases it, but I think there's more to it than how he's talked about it. The way I see these mandates is an effort to have people maintain a person R-naught of less than 1. How each person achieve that is up to them. They can wear masks, they can get vaccinated, they can avoi…

> we can't let Covid-19 run rampant until we feel we've all the options we like.

What makes you say this? There is literally no other city in our country doing a lockdown like this. Many places are still opened up and not experiencing a surge. Even in Missouri, cases have dropped in many regions in the last few days without such lockdowns, and hospitals have not been overloaded.

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