Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 136 posts

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#91

Post by D13Fd »

fooqux wrote: post #71
errantmind wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you think the money comes from to pay off this debt? The debt doesn't just disappear into thin air

I'm out of my depth here; if I'm wrong I would love to be educated. My assumption is that the debt holders would be the ones losing. I don't know about you, but I don't hold any person's medical or education debt. In my estimation, these are ultimately all held by the rich and powerful fat cats- owners of banks, etc.

No. We all end up paying, because the student loan debt they are talking about cancelling is ultimately held by the federal government.

We'd be taking things from the bucket of "the people who borrowed have to pay it back" and putting it into the bucket of "we all have to pay it back through increased taxes."

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#92

Post by JamesBarney »

Alekhine wrote: post #87
floor2 wrote: post #13

The terminology of "cancelling" the debt is the most dishonest, twisted abuse of the English language. There is no "cancelling" debt. There's only forcing other people to pay. The incentives here are entirely backwards. All the people who made good decisions around cost-benefit of their education, all the people who made frugal choices, all the people who worked hard for the delayed gratification of their long-term p…

"People have suffered, therefore we must continue to make people suffer so the previous suffering wasn't for nothing." You can say I'm straw-maning, but it's hard to see your argument as anything else.

Here is another way to phrase it.

Should we tax the poor(people who didn't get a college degree) to pay off the debts of the middle class and upper middle class?

Or if we're going to hand out large sums of money why should the front of the line be college educated individuals who went to private colleges?

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#93

Post by fooqux »

EvanAnderson wrote: post #74
fooqux wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm out of my depth here; if I'm wrong I would love to be educated. My assumption is that the debt holders would be the ones losing. I don't know about you, but I don't hold any person's medical or education debt. In my estimation, these are ultimately all held by the rich and powerful fat cats- owners of banks, etc.

The vast majority of student loan debt in the US is owned by the federal government. The "fat cats" who will be stuck holding the bag are the taxpayers.

Thanks. I just looked and yup, 92 of student loans are owned by the government. That seems.... very bad for all sorts of reasons.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#94

Post by viraptor »

adamsvystun wrote: post #80
viraptor wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the gov actually decided that the current situation is not sustainable and it's better for everyone to cut the losses and cover everything... why would it guarantee another loan like that the next day? The companies themselves could be interested in that loans of course, but without the previous guarantee the risk would be too high.

What you say makes sense, but the people proposing student loan cancellation do not talk about rolling back government guarantees on student loans. If they did, that would be totally different discussion.

Many do not, mainly concentrating on the post-covid impact. But at least two links from this article talk about limiting the ability for student debt collection, which would significantly limit the number and/or size of the student loans given.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#95

Post by gruez »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #68
gruez wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not really, given that in the US, the central bank could just take over those public loans, not collect on them, and likely not much would happen. Isn't that just helicopter money with extra steps?

This is not really helicopter money in that sense, you’re not giving out unallocated free money, you’re just doing cash flow relief. I think there is a good argument to make that cancelling that debt, and fixing the US college system, would likely result in more innovation: folks who come from (lower) middle class backgrounds could finally take more risk and try new jobs / start startups that they can’t today because…

> This is not really helicopter money in that sense, you’re not giving out unallocated free money, you’re just doing cash flow relief.

That's if you're only looking at the repayment stage of the loan in isolation. The way loans work is that:

1. you get money upfront in exchange for nothing

2. you pay it back

If you take out the second step ("cash flow relief"), then all you have left is "you get money upfront in exchange for nothing" which is the definition of helicopter money.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#96

Post by cudgy »

floor2 wrote: post #13

The terminology of "cancelling" the debt is the most dishonest, twisted abuse of the English language. There is no "cancelling" debt. There's only forcing other people to pay. The incentives here are entirely backwards. All the people who made good decisions around cost-benefit of their education, all the people who made frugal choices, all the people who worked hard for the delayed gratification of their long-term p…

Corporations get cancelable million dollar Covid loans that they used to buy their own stock. A proposal to help people pay off their student loans is treated with shock and awe.

However, it would be more fair to simply give every taxpayer $5000 or whatever is decided (like it ever will be) that can be used to pay off loans or for whatever they please.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#97

Post by D13Fd »

rhino369 wrote: post #88
newaccount2021 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its worse than that, its a lottery. Those graduates who have already paid off their debt, lose. Those soon-to-be students who have to pay high tuition, also lose. Indeed, since colleges will see loan forgiveness as an option, tuitions will rise.

Right, I paid off a balance of 260k dollars in student loans. Former classmates, who make exactly the same amount of money, who instead used their salaries to buy a house get a windfall? How is that good policy? Our current system already allows for cancellation for low income individuals. This is subsidy for the upper half of the middle class.

I couldn't agree more. I'm in the same bucket. My wife and I worked hard, scrimped and saved, lived way below our means, and paid off our student debt ~15 years early.

But now people want us to have to pay everyone else's debt too, through our taxes?

The only way this could possibly be fair is if they offer some kind of credit for loans already paid.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#98

Post by JamesBarney »

fooqux wrote: post #71
errantmind wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you think the money comes from to pay off this debt? The debt doesn't just disappear into thin air

I'm out of my depth here; if I'm wrong I would love to be educated. My assumption is that the debt holders would be the ones losing. I don't know about you, but I don't hold any person's medical or education debt. In my estimation, these are ultimately all held by the rich and powerful fat cats- owners of banks, etc.

It's solely U.S. government. Any discussed debt cancellation never included private loans. And if it did, the U.S. government would pay off the holder of the private loan, not just cancel the debt.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#99

Post by D13Fd »

jvanderbot wrote: post #45
tsjq wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you'd get a bigger tax bill.

Not necessarily. I don't think USA has to cut a check to cancel these, I think they just have to stop asking for repayment.

There is no difference in practice. Government spending is not going to change, but the amount coming in will decrease. That means either increased taxes or increased government debt.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#100

Post by gruez »

jvanderbot wrote: post #30
rjbwork wrote: post #21

Great let's do it. And of course, my parents, who paid tens of thousands of dollars for my tuition, and I, who have paid off tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt will be reimbursed for our absolute stupidity in being financially responsible, right?

Proponents might say that its not about helping those who have helped themselves, but about helping those who still need help. If you could manage without loans, you aren't in a situation where gov intervention is required. I'm not of that mindset. I'm content with my loans.

>If you could manage without loans, you aren't in a situation where gov intervention is required.

This assumes everyone is equally prudent, but I doubt this is the case. For instance, suppose I was frugal, eating only rice and beans so I could pay off my student loans ASAP, while my friend got takeout multiple times a week. In this case, does my friend deserve more intervention than me? If my acts of frugality and sacrifice leads me to not get intervention, what message does that send to society?

Post reply on HN