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Why People Feel Like Victims

nautil.us

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Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#91

Post by staticman2 »

WalterBright wrote: post #51
the_only_law wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's never been easier and cheaper to get an education in the US Source? even the most conservative people I know who went to school in the 80s/90s say they could never afford it now. I myself am trying to figure out how to pay for it without $40k grand in debt if I choose to go back.

MIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfQxyVuLeCs&list=PL9F74AFA03... K-12: https://www.khanacademy.org/ All free, available on the supercomputer in your pocket.

You could have made the same argument in 1908, telling people to self educate at their local library.

If everyone watched a 2007 youtube course on circuits at MIT and learned the material, the value of such a skillset would be equal to the value of flipping Burgers at Burger King.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#92

Post by treis »

anonfornoreason wrote: post #25
baleeeeeeve wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but you have to acknowledge that your experience was with a version of the United States that no longer exists. Things have changed a lot for people on the bottom rungs since the '90s, Walter. Some sympathy for the fact that bootstrapping is vastly more difficult for young people today might be a better look.

Disagree, it's never been easier. The country is awash in vast amounts of money, trying to find ways to be invested, to be spent. Access to information and resources is higher than it has ever been. Sure, it's hard to just get by if you aren't out there hustling. The time of getting an average job with an average pension, which lets you buy a reasonable price house is over. The world is your oyster if you are willing…

>The time of getting an average job with an average pension, which lets you buy a reasonable price house is over.

Covid craziness aside, that's still true. You can't do it in California, or Seattle or NYC but outside of those areas it's easily obtainable.

Most of these "homes were so cheap" anecdotes neglect to mention that you might be paying 18% interest on your cheap houses. Or they are talking about a place like NYC in the 70s. Yeah you could have gotten a house for a song in a bankrupt city suffering through the crack epidemic.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#93

Post by rejectedandsad »

WalterBright wrote: post #21
baleeeeeeve wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but you have to acknowledge that your experience was with a version of the United States that no longer exists. Things have changed a lot for people on the bottom rungs since the '90s, Walter. Some sympathy for the fact that bootstrapping is vastly more difficult for young people today might be a better look.

It's never been easier and cheaper to get an education in the US, start a business, reach a global marketplace, learn how to do anything you want to do, etc. When I was young it was pretty much unheard of for people to get wealthy before 25. Now it's commonplace and unremarkable.

How do you define wealthy Walter? I’m 25 and “unremarkable” and my net worth is only a quarter million. I make about $200k at a company you’d probably consider unimpressive.

Not everyone can be remarkable enough to go to CalTech.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#94

Post by breakyerself »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #46
rayiner wrote: post #30

> So victimhood is a learned behavior after a certain age. As a brown guy with kids in the school system, that's why recent trends in education alarm me. I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. It's dangerous experimentation with kids' psychology. Growing up as one…

The mere act of caring about your children's schooling, and taking measures to ensure its quality is a far more solid predictor of good outcomes than nearly anything else. At least, that's what economic data from the last fifty years says. These "narratives" are just that, fictional stories told to support a prevailing social ideology, and yes, they are dangerous, not the least because they ignore the facts.

We can debate all day long about the merits of explaining systemic racism to young black kids vs keeping them ignorant about it. However the people ignoring the facts are the ones who deny systemic racism exists.

It may be better for children of color to be ignorant about it, but certainly not adults of any racial background.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#95

Post by munificent »

silicon2401 wrote: post #44

Zizek has talked a lot about victimhood and makes, imo, some great points. One point he makes is that people today assign virtue to victimhood, which doesn't really correlate because victims can turn out to be assholes themselves. I agree with this point and think it's a major reason why it's trendy to be a victim. If victims get all the attention and support these days just for being a victim of something, why not j…

> which doesn't really correlate because victims can turn out to be assholes themselves.

And, in particular, victimhood is often contextual and temporal. The oppressed person today may turn around and oppress someone else tomorrow. (And, in fact, fewer things predict likelihood of abusing more than a history of being abused.)

If our culture's moral system is based on partitioning the graph of interactions into "victim" and "victimizer", then the system is completely unable to handle the reality that there are cycles in that graph. There are homophobic Black people and racist queers. Anti-trans women and trans mysogynists.

It's impossible to reliably take sides in an environment like that if your moral code just says "side with the victim". Which victim? When? Do we side with J.K. Rowling because she was a victim or domestic assault, or vilify her because she's anti-trans?

As our moral culture gets increasingly polarized, it gets increasingly unable to accurately model the world as it is.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#96

Post by tryonenow »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #24

If you are a victim you are entitled to treat your victimizer with contempt and, increasingly, violence. It removes your victimizer from then normal moral calculus. All the better if the victimizer can be made a general category, and as amorphous and abstract as possible, thereby allowing your manipulator to direct your anger at whoever they choose from that category. Note that this does not necessarily mean that you…

>If you are a victim you are entitled to treat your victimizer with contempt and, increasingly, violence. It removes your victimizer from then normal moral calculus.

And more pertinent to today's increasingly popular political machinations, it provides a faux justification to exercise power over others for personal or in-group gain.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#97

Post by lfowles »

rejectedandsad wrote: post #93
WalterBright wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's never been easier and cheaper to get an education in the US, start a business, reach a global marketplace, learn how to do anything you want to do, etc. When I was young it was pretty much unheard of for people to get wealthy before 25. Now it's commonplace and unremarkable.

How do you define wealthy Walter? I’m 25 and “unremarkable” and my net worth is only a quarter million. I make about $200k at a company you’d probably consider unimpressive. Not everyone can be remarkable enough to go to CalTech.

Some days I can't tell which comments on HN are parody and which aren't...

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#98

Post by initplus »

pasabagi wrote: post #10
WalterBright wrote: post #5

I'll be more brazen. I don't know about other countries, but if you live in the US and am an adult of sound mind and body, you're not a victim. If your life isn't working for you, reassess your situation, develop a plan, and get busy!

Is this a moral or a factual statement? I guess I'd reject the whole victim/perpetrator dichotomy and say that people's conditions are contingent on forces largely out of their control. That's a factual statement. Lots of people and societies find this very uncomfortable - we generally like the cosmos to be largely about us, down to our decisions, both for the better and for the worse.

On a practical level, this is a bad view to hold.

Individuals with an external locus of control have worse life outcomes. Having an internal locus of control, the idea that you do have a large amount of control over your life, results in better outcomes.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#99

Post by rejectedandsad »

lfowles wrote: post #97
rejectedandsad wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define wealthy Walter? I’m 25 and “unremarkable” and my net worth is only a quarter million. I make about $200k at a company you’d probably consider unimpressive. Not everyone can be remarkable enough to go to CalTech.

Some days I can't tell which comments on HN are parody and which aren't...

I’m sorry what seems to be satirical about my statement?

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#100

Post by treis »

throwawayboise wrote: post #29
WalterBright wrote: post #2

It's popular to be a victim these days. Much more popular than I recall it being earlier in my lifetime. It even goes so far as to regard people who aren't victims with contempt.

Agreed. When I was young, victimhood was mostly scorned. "Don't be a crybaby." "Shake it off." "Toughen up." "Words can't hurt you." These were the messages I got from parents and teachers when I was feeling sorry for myself.

That seems to be an orthogonal issue. Namely, the expectation that whatever wrong you have suffered should be righted. The message is to shut up because nobody is going to help you. Certainly effective to getting the victim to stop complaining. But that's not the same as actually coping with the issue, or better yet, solving it.
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