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On Being an Outsider

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Re: On Being an Outsider

#91

Post by varjag »

periheli0n wrote: post #78
titzer wrote: post #74

I moved from the US to Germany and lived there for almost 7 years. Even as someone with German ancestry (from 5 generations ago), a German last name, and enough language skills to get by, you never really fit in. Germans are insular in a way that, I suppose, all people are, but a special kind of matter-of-fact curtness that is off-putting. Younger Germans are embarrassed by it and make a show of welcoming outsiders (…

I don’t think there is any country in the world that is truly and completely welcoming to immigrants. One is always the outsider. However what’s important to realise is that this is the default situation for most people, even is they just move town in their home country (although to a lesser extent).

The one that you hear complaints about the most (the USA) comes in fact closest.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#92

Post by atoav »

periheli0n wrote: post #82
atoav wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Austrian living in Germany I actually manage to not have them notice that I am from a country who was their enemy for centuries. Of course if I were to speak with my Austrian dialect they would barely understand me, but I don't, so whenever I bring it up they are usually quite surprised. It also depends on your social circles and where in Germany you are. If you are in Berlin or Hamburg being German won't matte…

Precisely! Also, most southern Germans will understand your Austrian tongue very well. Berlin is full of “immigrants” from southern Germany, but they will go great lengths to hide it, for fear of being made fun of. The moral barrier that keeps most Germans from making fun of immigrants from other countries is void if they detect a “funny” German accent.

For me it is actually not fear of being made fun of, it is just that I don't like to repeat myself because I am not understood. Talking in a way where people understand what you are saying has tangible benefits.

My home dialect is so far removed from "propper written German" that to me it just feels like talking a different language, which arguably makes things easier, because it doesn't feel like I am adjusting my Austrian German to make it fit, it feels like I am talking in a different language altogether.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#93

Post by ivan1783 »

Born in the soviet union, moved to America as a refugee when I was a baby with my parents due to threats from the mafia. Later in life moved to Germany, where I still live today. I "grew up" Russian, I went to school American and I now am trying to fit into Germany. My (soon to be) wife is French. I cant speak any language properly any more (Russian, German, French, English) and have nowhere where I can clearly identify as "home". I feel the most at home in Germany, but I am clearly an outsider here and will always be (even if in some cases people don't notice I'm not German). Can totally understand this article, hits close to home.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#95

Post by jwilber »

logshipper wrote: post #32

I moved for university to Toronto, Canada (from India) when I was 18. Despite having lived here for (nearly) 4 years, and loving absolutely every single minute of it, I don't know if and how I will ever be truly claim myself as being "from" Toronto. Everytime someone here asks me where am I from, I genuinely don't know how to answer them. Do I say I'm from India? Well, I haven't gone back once in these 5 years, and I…

Tbh I think four year into your adult life is quite a short amount of time to start claiming you’re from there. Maybe it’s cultural, but in America/Mexico or Europe that’d come off very strange and probably be met with eye rolls.

I think you’re affording far too much into the question- they probably just want to know where you were born.

But do you- nothing wrong with following the beat of your own drum.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#96

Post by iovrthoughtthis »

periheli0n wrote: post #78
titzer wrote: post #74

I moved from the US to Germany and lived there for almost 7 years. Even as someone with German ancestry (from 5 generations ago), a German last name, and enough language skills to get by, you never really fit in. Germans are insular in a way that, I suppose, all people are, but a special kind of matter-of-fact curtness that is off-putting. Younger Germans are embarrassed by it and make a show of welcoming outsiders (…

I don’t think there is any country in the world that is truly and completely welcoming to immigrants. One is always the outsider. However what’s important to realise is that this is the default situation for most people, even is they just move town in their home country (although to a lesser extent).

country is a red flag here.

i don’t think there is a group of humans with a shared identity that is truly and completely welcoming to people outside of that identity.

which is why i don’t enjoy making country a part of my identity.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#97

Post by feralimal »

titzer wrote: post #74

I moved from the US to Germany and lived there for almost 7 years. Even as someone with German ancestry (from 5 generations ago), a German last name, and enough language skills to get by, you never really fit in. Germans are insular in a way that, I suppose, all people are, but a special kind of matter-of-fact curtness that is off-putting. Younger Germans are embarrassed by it and make a show of welcoming outsiders (…

That's white on white racism.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#98

Post by hoseja »

atoav wrote: post #81
titzer wrote: post #74

I moved from the US to Germany and lived there for almost 7 years. Even as someone with German ancestry (from 5 generations ago), a German last name, and enough language skills to get by, you never really fit in. Germans are insular in a way that, I suppose, all people are, but a special kind of matter-of-fact curtness that is off-putting. Younger Germans are embarrassed by it and make a show of welcoming outsiders (…

As an Austrian living in Germany I actually manage to not have them notice that I am from a country who was their enemy for centuries. Of course if I were to speak with my Austrian dialect they would barely understand me, but I don't, so whenever I bring it up they are usually quite surprised. It also depends on your social circles and where in Germany you are. If you are in Berlin or Hamburg being German won't matte…

It has completely normal regional culture, it's all the other places with less of it that never developed it (US) or actively homogenized it (France, Russia...).

Re: On Being an Outsider

#99

Post by periheli0n »

iovrthoughtthis wrote: post #96
periheli0n wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there is any country in the world that is truly and completely welcoming to immigrants. One is always the outsider. However what’s important to realise is that this is the default situation for most people, even is they just move town in their home country (although to a lesser extent).

country is a red flag here. i don’t think there is a group of humans with a shared identity that is truly and completely welcoming to people outside of that identity. which is why i don’t enjoy making country a part of my identity.

I tend to feel the same. The concept of a "nation" seems to be at the source of many problems as the world shifts to globalism. It really only works by creating a divide between "them" and "us". It helps instilling a sense of belonging and a base level of trust in a group of people, but inevitably nationalism becomes a problem when people would like to move between these nations.

The EU is actually trying very hard to facilitate moving betwen member nations, but it faces a lot of headwind from people in all countries who would prefer staying in their bubble. Brexit is probably the most impactful result of this tension.

Funny enough since quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago, and the nation concept has the additional third reich connotation especially in Germany. This is in stark contrast with the UK, which has existed as a nation for a much, much longer time.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#100

Post by periheli0n »

DocTomoe wrote: post #83
titzer wrote: post #74

I moved from the US to Germany and lived there for almost 7 years. Even as someone with German ancestry (from 5 generations ago), a German last name, and enough language skills to get by, you never really fit in. Germans are insular in a way that, I suppose, all people are, but a special kind of matter-of-fact curtness that is off-putting. Younger Germans are embarrassed by it and make a show of welcoming outsiders (…

Especially with Germany, this also is a cultural phenomeon - even for Germans, it is surprisingly hard to get into a group you are not a member of (especially if you go into the less hip, super-urban areas of Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg or Munich). Getting into the pack is hard, but once you're in, you got friends for life. I can only imagine how hard that is for a foreigner.

I found it equally hard to "get in the pack" whether I moved town within Germany, or moved to France, or to the UK, or within the UK.

No matter where, it was always easiest to find friends among people who themselves have moved around a lot. People who always lived in the same place will almost always have their wall up, especially if they have the feeling that too many foreigners invade their home town.

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