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Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

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Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#91

Post by gowld »

azinman2 wrote: post #44
at_a_remove wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It needs a little more nuance, especially the plea bargaining. And on top of that, prosecutors are known to pile on tons of only vaguely-applicable, probably-not-convictable charges just to get someone to plea bargain down, so that complicates even the plea bargain exception. I'll throw in another part where more fine-grained control would be nice: the amount of said substances is measured by gross weight, b…

And what about trafficking 100kg of heroin? Everyone likes to pick the seemingly trivial examples to justify liberal values on jailing (“what if the 3rd strike is stealing a loaf of bread!”) but the reality is there are a broad range of crimes by a broad range of people. That’s why we have judges and give them latitude.

> That’s why we have judges and give them latitude.

See "Mandatory sentencing" aka "Mandatory Minimums"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_sentencing#United_St...

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#92

Post by ivan888 »

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #53
cubano wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. Tell me about it. Between my prison "stigma" and the discriminatory ageism that is very prevalent in the industry, and even though I have 30 years professional programming experience, I am currently finding it impossible to find any work. Can someone please tell me...what am I supposed to do at age 55? Find a new "career"...doing what? I know ple…

Is getting records expunged not a option in your case or in many case? My understanding is that at least most non-violent offences could be expunged or sealed after N years of completing your sentence. I'm certainly not an expert so it would be interesting to know how that process can or can not apply.

This seems to be highly variable depending on the locality that holds the records. It does not seem to be standardized in my experience.

Even after expungement where possible, there can be problems with records being inappropriately cached by background check services, and a background check after expungement may still show the conviction. Yes, this can be appealed, but still puts an undue burden on the applicant and may ultimately be a deciding factor between similar candidates even though it should not be used

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#94

Post by the_only_law »

mumblemumble wrote: post #66
rwmurrayVT wrote: post #7

The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. At the federal level, where I have personal experience, it seems like it's entirely retribution instead of rehabilitation. I was in a federal prison camp and it is primarily an exercise in leisure. The entire day was composed of well.. nothing. If you like reading, fresh air, and exercise you're in luck. If you like alcohol, drugs,…

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. I count myself blessed to have opportunities when I came home. I'm so happy to hear that you had that. A while back, a member of my community was not so lucky. He got caught with an ounce of pot, spent some time in prison. When he got out, he had no legitimate job prospects due to his criminal record. He did eventually a job, though, through netw…

Not exactly the same, as I believe there were more than drugs involved, but several years ago, I met someone who had been through the system in his youth. I didn’t really like the guy at first, as he was rather volatile and could suddenly turn aggressive (diagnosed bipolar, don’t know if he was actively treated at the time), but as time went on we were mostly cool. Eventually he would tell me about his life, how he had gone to school for three years, but had to drop out for a variety of reasons. He would talk about his time spent homeless and the things he would do to get by or protect his stuff. It was pretty clear he wasn’t ok mentally. He couldn’t find good work, due to his record, and felt condemned to working a near minimum wage job to support him and his wife in the run down town we lived in. Eventually, he started getting erratic, confronting his managers about issues with his paycheck among other things. One morning, we heard he had crashed his car into a ditch and I didn’t hear anything from or about him for several months until a mutual acquaintance had informed me he had committed suicide at 27.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#95

Post by sigmaprimus »

I'm conflicted when it come to this idea, on one hand it does seem pointless to punish addicts but on the other, very few of the addicts that are incarcerated were not aware of the laws before they got caught. In many cases they traffic in "Minor" amounts to support their own addictions which just creates more addicts and spreads the sickness to other victims.

In a perfect world, all drugs would be legal and more importantly free for anyone who wanted them. This could be possible while still requiring addicts to visit medical providers for their fix. This would quickly remove the profits from the illegal drug trade and keep the addicted from being exploited in order to feed their addictions.

I have seen first hand the destruction caused by so called non violent drug offenders and can attest it is just as bad if not worse on the lives of those around them. In my case it started with small things disappearing from our household, like heirlooms and collectables but ended with a selfish addict telling lies and extorting money from myself and others. My particular situation finally ended with the addict overdosing and all the misery that came from that, being thrust upon those who still loved and depended on them.

I bounce back and forth between being angry at myself, then the addict and sometimes the people working in law enforcement and the justice system(Who have managed to build nice little lives for themselves through policing and punishing the addicted under the guise of making the world a better place.)

So IDK if freeing a bunch of drug users who were aware what they were doing at the time was criminal, is going to solve the root problems caused by drugs any better than the current system of keeping them locked away from the rest of us until they figure out how to toe the line.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#96

Post by unethical_ban »

aaomidi wrote: post #54
cubano wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. Tell me about it. Between my prison "stigma" and the discriminatory ageism that is very prevalent in the industry, and even though I have 30 years professional programming experience, I am currently finding it impossible to find any work. Can someone please tell me...what am I supposed to do at age 55? Find a new "career"...doing what? I know ple…

The call to end prisons, police funding, and prison funding is partially to solve this exact problem. I don't think ANYONE should be able to request a federal background check. I don't think background checks should be allowed for employment or housing. Same as credit checks. A person is either safe enough to be in society, or not. There should NEVER be an in between state. And before you say anything: 1. Yes I am fi…

I disagree with you to some extent, in that the world is shades of gray, and indeed, it is naive to think that either "someone is so dangerous we should deprive them of all liberty" or "despite past activities, we are so confident in their rehabilitation that no caution should be taken in their release to society".

You do make an interesting suggestion that, if we do put a scarlet letter on someone for a past crime for which they are deemed "safe" enough to be in the public, that they should be compensated for that in some way. Shit, look at the movie "Heat" for one of many examples. If someone is trying to get their life together but can't find decent work on parole, or is abused and looked at as a criminal despite paying their debt, what motive might someone have to stay out of a past life?

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#97

Post by Ccecil »

There needs to be massive revision across society if this were to happen, jobs, housing, life...it is all burdened for the felon greater than the time in prison was. Many have trouble just adjusting to things like the choices in the supermarket...let alone navigating the troubles of finding housing.

In the town I live in, (Inland NW, US), the majority of "affordable" rentals are all rented by a small number of property management companies which do not seem to be local and have 1-800 numbers. This covers a very sizable portion of the apartment buildings...guess what...they DO NOT rent to people with drug felonies...burglar...sure. But if you sold marlijuana 20 years ago you cannot rent from them...period. So...combine that with an area which the average rent has tripled in the last 20 years...with a massive shortage of for sale properties and what are these people to do?

Work and other things are tricky as well...it isn't that a felon cannot get a job...but they are very likely to be manipulated by their employer. They will typically be paid less and be treated differently than their coworkers.

Couple all that with the ineligibility for SBA loans if you have felony convictions...now what?

You are likely to be able to get a passport and such...but most will never truly see these things go off their record permanently...unless you get a withheld judgement you are still required to say "yes" to the have you ever been convicted question. Employers being required to ask "in the last x years have you been convicted?" solves that issue...allows for the punishment to be served and forgiven. "have you ever been convicted?" assumes there is no retribution possible ever.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#98

Post by at_a_remove »

azinman2 wrote: post #44
at_a_remove wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It needs a little more nuance, especially the plea bargaining. And on top of that, prosecutors are known to pile on tons of only vaguely-applicable, probably-not-convictable charges just to get someone to plea bargain down, so that complicates even the plea bargain exception. I'll throw in another part where more fine-grained control would be nice: the amount of said substances is measured by gross weight, b…

And what about trafficking 100kg of heroin? Everyone likes to pick the seemingly trivial examples to justify liberal values on jailing (“what if the 3rd strike is stealing a loaf of bread!”) but the reality is there are a broad range of crimes by a broad range of people. That’s why we have judges and give them latitude.

This is going to be unpopular, but I say legalize it.

Watch "My 600 Pound Life." People can destroy their lives with food, they can destroy their lives with alcohol. One is merely legal, one is a necessity. People make terrible life choices constantly and selecting heroin -- once prescribed for asthma -- as a no-go is just hating the newcomer versus giving traditional old alcohol, a civilizational favorite, a pass.

We should spend the money from the war on drugs on instead trying to prevent the root causes of these kinds of disastrous decisions. We don't even have a great grasp on why people make some of these choices yet. I'm not saying we just set up a Needle Park or anything, but frankly we've lost the war on drugs. It's time to re-evaluate our priorities.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#99

Post by DaedPsyker »

rwmurrayVT wrote: post #7

The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. At the federal level, where I have personal experience, it seems like it's entirely retribution instead of rehabilitation. I was in a federal prison camp and it is primarily an exercise in leisure. The entire day was composed of well.. nothing. If you like reading, fresh air, and exercise you're in luck. If you like alcohol, drugs,…

Why does it need to be just programming? I don't understand this attitude, whether in schools or jail, program, program, program.

I program too, its my job so I get it provides a living but my God do we get myopic at times. Other careers, good ones too are out there.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#100

Post by leetcrew »

offtop5 wrote: post #49

Society needs to have something between jaywalking and attempted murder. Right now if you fish without a permit in the wrong place you're a felon and you will never be able to get a decent job for the rest of your life. The entire reason the American criminal justice system is like this, at its core is to punish minority groups. I don't ever see this changing, and it's a big part of why I want to make an exit by 40.…

> Society needs to have something between jaywalking and attempted murder.

there is already a lot of gradation in the spectrum of consequences: fines, probation, house arrest, weekend sentence (free to work during the week, but need check into jail each weekend), different security levels for different offenses. not much "rehabilitation" occurs anywhere along the spectrum, but it's not like you go straight from a small fine to 25 years in supermax.

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