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Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

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Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#91

Post by vorpalhex »

ctvo wrote: post #66
nakagin wrote: post #58

I still don’t get it: why would you choose something that’s so hard to change, if ever, for a store ID? It’s convenient but is it secure? There are photos of me waving with my palms out...

Do you really think this is a photo of your palm they're storing? No doubt there are 3D scanners (to map the elevation of your palms, the depth of the lines, etc.), infrared imaging and a slew of other minor sensors. To make this fast, they need to effectively correlate enough of the data to identify you without relying solely on a single thing.

We already know there are solid theoretical basis for rebuilding 3d spaces from photos. Infrared imaging doesn't dramatically get different data from a regular camera except maybe picking up your veins a bit more clearly.

There aren't a bunch of other sensors available.. probably some heat/temperature just to make sure it's a real palm but that's not for uniqueness.

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#92

Post by julianozen »

nafizh wrote: post #30

'One reason was that palm recognition is considered more private than some biometric alternatives because you can’t determine a person’s identity by looking at an image of their palm.' Umm, if this is true, how are you identifying the person then?

Is it possible they are saying that you can’t uniquely identify a person in the population at large based on palm, but you can in a smaller population of people such as registered Amazon go users or ticket holders for a venue?

On an iPhone, biometric is being treated as a password where the expectation is that no one but you could open it. For Amazon go, it is just an identifier to a user

Plus a data dump of uuids and palms might not be useful information. Maybe there is a effectively a way to hash the raw palm data since this is just effectively a user look up

This is pure speculation

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#93

Post by culturestate »

dane-pgp wrote: post #73
culturestate wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why couldn't the device handle your biometric authentication? Your 12-year-old son can't (hopefully) steal your face or your fingerprint.

You might be able to avoid a central database of biometric data, but who is going to certify the accuracy of these biometric authentication devices? Presumably if a manufacturer made a device that didn't actually bother checking the fingerprint, the systems that integrate with these devices would have to refuse to accept claims from it.

If this were an interoperable standard, I imagine the pool of "approved issuers" would be relatively small, limited to e.g. governments or banks. Bloomberg uses a system not entirely dissimilar to this[1], and I could see Apple and Google building an OS API that the issuers' apps would use specifically for this.

1. https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/101862/what-adv...

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#94

Post by tinyhouse »

Not fully following what problem this is solving. I was in one of these Go stores and scanning the app to get in is convenient enough for me. Now, if you're telling me I can use this palm technology in almost every store I go to, then I can see the value. But if it's just for Go/Amazon/WHF stores then not so much.

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#96

Post by catsdanxe »

joezydeco wrote: post #76
elil17 wrote: post #61

My college uses these to control entrance to the dining halls. The technology has been around for years and it works consistently and effectively. They want you to think this is something highly innovative but I’m pretty sure they’re just licensing already existing palm scanners.

Were those dining hall scanners using a palm-on-glass technology, or mid-air like what Amazon is showing?

My college used mid air finger print scanners. It scanned all 4 finger prints and would let you pass even if you had a bandaid over one.

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#97

Post by debrice »

gonzo41 wrote: post #90
yalogin wrote: post #74

So far what Apple and other companies did is to keep the biometric auth tied to the device and not let leak out. Now Amazon is saying leaking it is the feature. They are using the hand as the identifier, so the biometric id is what is used to identify a person, not an email address, not a random number or a handle. The biometric data that cannot be changed ever is the identifier. It's very troubling. - The privacy an…

This is the door you didn't hope was opened? So many other more terrible doors are open. Not saying this is great. But look at what social media is doing to the social fabric. This is just shopping.

I would caution against such statement “this is just shopping”.

Social media also used to be underestimated in the damage they can do. Privacy information brokers are like an Hydra, you cut one head, 3 new ones grow... and before you know it, your biometrics, bed time conversations, source of news, children habits... are up for sell because someone thought “it’s just X“ and underestimated what someone else can do with all the data they collected.

I believe we need to change our optimistic attitude when it comes to individual privacy as we are nothing if not seeding the world of tomorrow, the world of the generations to come.

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#98

Post by 6d6b73 »

prima-facie wrote: post #23
plumeria wrote: post #21

Will this service have a "forget me" button? I think this should be the first question addressed in their FAQ.

Under the GDPR in EU or the DPA2018 in the UK you can request your data to be erased, corrected or you can grant limited access to your data. You also have the right to request that a decision to not be made solely using automated means. This is a good introductory article https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-do-i-make... Too bad most of these companies operate based on the US legislation which doesn't…

The question is - is picture/scan of your palm YOUR data? or is it Amazon's data? I'm sure corporate lawyers can find ways around simple things like GDPR.

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#99

Post by kleiba »

dane-pgp wrote: post #70
kleiba wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently attended a scientific conference on biometrics (I'm not from the field) and it was shocking to learn about all that stuff, both what's going on in the research community as well as on the law makers' side of things.

> as well as on the law makers' side of things. Anything you're allowed to share?

Oh, there wasn't anything secret presented at the conference as far as I'm aware.

It was a European conference and, for instance, I hadn't previously known about the Prüm Arrangements [1], or perhaps I had and forgotten about them. In any event I was not aware of the ability to freely share such highly private information about individuals across borders, and quite shocked to learn about it.

Mind you, the majority of the attendants of the conference were absolutely uncritical about such regulations being in place. In fact, they were mostly in favor of them it seemed, which is not surprising given that that's what their research is based on.

[1] https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/mayors-office-policing-...

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#100

Post by [deleted] »

yalogin wrote: post #74

So far what Apple and other companies did is to keep the biometric auth tied to the device and not let leak out. Now Amazon is saying leaking it is the feature. They are using the hand as the identifier, so the biometric id is what is used to identify a person, not an email address, not a random number or a handle. The biometric data that cannot be changed ever is the identifier. It's very troubling. - The privacy an…

[deleted]
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