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The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

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Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#91

Post by dencodev »

dhosek wrote: post #84
phtrivier wrote: post #81

The Zoe is, sadly, at the moment, the perfect anti-yellow-jacket car: no matter how much rebates the government will give you, you need to put so much cash on the table that it's completely unaffordable to those who might benefit from it the most (daily short-medium commutes between peripheral towns.) Instead, it's bought by already-affluent upper middle-class, who then get to feel better about their carbon footprint…

Here in the US, used Nissan Leafs run around $10K. We don't have much call for another car right now (our main car is a plug-in hybrid Chrysler minivan), but if we did, this would be a likely candidate.

I see endless Leafs for sale (the older original ones) for only $5k. Granted their batteries are pretty degraded and I'm sure only gets 60 miles of range when blasting AC or heater.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#92

Post by john61 »

Markoff wrote: post #86
neuronic wrote: post #67

Anecdote time: I am driving a Zoe multiple times a week and thoroughly enjoy it. Is it premium class car and will take me 600km? No, but that's not why I am driving Zoes. I drive them because it's short city commutes 99% of the time. Rarely more than 10-15km, usually transporting something or bypassing public transport in busy times/Corona/if car is just quicker. I use them via Sixt Share, a car-sharing service. Alwa…

wouldn't electric bike/scooter without renting make more sense for you? unless you use it to do big grocery, though this could be resolved by ordering grocery online I'm living in the Prague without car, only missing car when doing the grocery, but there is no point to buy car just to do big grocery once a week, might as well rent a car or take taxi or order grocery online, if I would be that lazy.

I have a bicycle trailer which caries 80 kg and has enough room for a big grocery.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#93

Post by throwaway0a5e »

himinlomax wrote: post #82
bitexploder wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?

It's usually not so much the expense of the car as the cost of operating them. Consider how expensive it is to own a car in NYC, well it's the same in all European cities, even those of much smaller size.

NYC parking prices, California gas prices (and possibly California registration costs depending on country), European tax rates, and "safety" inspection programs (that mostly just increase the cost of operating old, cheap cars), combine to provide a hefty financial incentive for people in Western Europe to take the bus/train.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#94

Post by jacquesm »

bitexploder wrote: post #77
namdnay wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons for that is that cars are cheap in the USA, in the absolute and even more relative to incomes. The cheapest RWD model 3 starts at 50k euros - that's unaffordable for 99% of french families. To give a very simplified but realistic stereotype: An upper-middle class family od two software engineers + 2 children will probably have one "premium" family car for sir (e.g. VW Golf or 3008) and one city car…

Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?

Europe wasn't built around cars, car infrastructure or car manufacturing. Consequently they are also not subsidized as much, this is reflected in the price of fuel and the sticker price of the vehicles themselves.

There are other side effects: better public transport (though there is great variation and some of the old advantages are being rolled back), better bike infrastructure (again, not everywhere) and more local shopping rather than just malls.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#95

Post by mcv »

koenvdb wrote: post #76
guerby wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the whole 2019 (with a crazy december) Tesla Model 3 was the first car by number of sale (electric or not) https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-... 1 Tesla Model 3 29,922 2 VW Polo 12,920 3 Ford Focus 10,478 4 VW Golf 9,263 Number 2 to 4 are small cars. But Tesla sale number per country just mean Tesla decided to allocate more cars to a specific country, as long as it is production constrain…

Focus and Golf are both similar sizes, I wouldn't say the VW Golf is a small car. (Nor would I say that about the new Polo, it's actually quite big)

Back in the 1980s I considered the VW Golf a small car, but not anymore. Not sure if it's gotten larger since then, or my view of a small car has shrunk. But I don't think the Tesla 3 is that much larger than a Golf.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#96

Post by jacquesm »

koenvdb wrote: post #76
guerby wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the whole 2019 (with a crazy december) Tesla Model 3 was the first car by number of sale (electric or not) https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-... 1 Tesla Model 3 29,922 2 VW Polo 12,920 3 Ford Focus 10,478 4 VW Golf 9,263 Number 2 to 4 are small cars. But Tesla sale number per country just mean Tesla decided to allocate more cars to a specific country, as long as it is production constrain…

Focus and Golf are both similar sizes, I wouldn't say the VW Golf is a small car. (Nor would I say that about the new Polo, it's actually quite big)

The new Polo is as large as the Golf used to be and the new Golf, especially the station is as large as the early model Passats. This is mostly an arms race, not so much on size as on crash safety, to maintain those precious stars car models creep up in their outside dimensions. Interiors are fairly static.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#97

Post by PeterisP »

cheerlessbog wrote: post #70
oblio wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whichever company is the first to make a family EV with a +500km range for less than $20k will sell tens of millions of cars.

In the US most electric cars are charged on the driveway or in the garage. Most Europeans don't have these. I'm generalizing of course, but it's a significant difference. Most folks I know would have to run a cable across the sidewalk. Electric is only going to work if all the supermarkets and pubs etc etc have fast chargers. Or maybe they put them into lamp posts.

Running electricity cables to streetside parking spaces and parking lots near apartment buildings is now considered key infrastructure that the EU governments are rolling out. It's slow at the moment, but we'll get there.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#98

Post by x87678r »

pi-rat wrote: post #12

Very interesting, the Zoe is all the way back on 7th place here in Norway (more than 50% of all new cars here are electric), I wonder why there's a big difference compared with "mainland Europe".. Of all time: Leaf, Golf, i3, model S, Soul, Model 3, Zoe.. In 2020: E-tron, Golf, Leaf, Kona, Model 3, Soul, Zoe. Could be because Zoe is a picky charger. It's made to AC charge on TN power nets, and Norway has quite a bit…

> In 2020: E-tron, Golf, Leaf, Kona, Model 3, Soul, Zoe.

Wow to me this is bigger news, Tesla is #5 on the list.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#99

Post by mytailorisrich »

rsynnott wrote: post #61
mytailorisrich wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what we see on European roads it's quite common for people in Belgium and the Netherlands to drive to Southern Europe for the summer holidays. Usually these are big wagon cars, though because they need to fit the family and luggage in there. So I think that people will stick to ICE until there are family-sized EV with the range and the price range. Teslas are not really an option at the moment, IMO.

I don't doubt that _some_ people do it, but I would seriously doubt that everyone, or anything approaching everyone, does it. This would imply a much smaller market for small cars than actually exists. So, yeah, the Zoe wouldn't be suitable for those people, but it might be suitable for people who buy small cars anyway (which is most of the market, AFAIK).

Obviously a lot of people take the train or fly. I'm just saying that a lot of people drive, as well. I'm not sure EVs are ready for this sort of trip in any case.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#100

Post by em500 »

bitexploder wrote: post #77
namdnay wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons for that is that cars are cheap in the USA, in the absolute and even more relative to incomes. The cheapest RWD model 3 starts at 50k euros - that's unaffordable for 99% of french families. To give a very simplified but realistic stereotype: An upper-middle class family od two software engineers + 2 children will probably have one "premium" family car for sir (e.g. VW Golf or 3008) and one city car…

Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?

A new Toyota Corolla in the Netherlands costs around €25k, of which around 11k are taxes (5k sales tax plus 6k vehicle tax). Gas price at the pump are €1.67/L (= €6.32/gallon), of which almost half are (sales+excise) taxes.

Our vaunted public services don't come cheap.

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