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Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

workmanlayout.org

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Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#91

Post by toyg »

taneq wrote: post #82
smabie wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a rationale behind that?

Not one that I'm aware of, and a quick check of modern online typing resources doesn't share the same bias. I guess it was either the teacher's preference or something she was taught in typewriter school.

I think “in the dark ages” it was more common to end up using keyboards with only one Shift key - think “nuclear reactor control panel” and stuff like that. So it probably made sense to bend touchtyping theory for practical purposes when preparing kids.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#92

Post by dvdkhlng »

shannongreen wrote: post #55
cryptos wrote: post #48

I appreciate such efforts and consider QWERTY more or less a historical accident. But how do you actually use these layouts? Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically? But what about notebooks then where this is often not possible? Or do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? But how do you _learn_ the layout then? Th…

I learnt Dvorak 6 years ago and now type exclusively in Dvorak on QWERTY keyboards (currently a Microsoft Ergonomic). I have never used a keyboard with a Dvorak printed key layout. I think my Dvorak typing speed is still slightly slower than my old QWERTY max, but it feels much more comfortable typing for long periods, and less effortful. The printed keys don't mean much - to learn to touch type correctly you shouldn…

I switched to Dovorak maybe more than 15 years ago. But I found it put too much load an the pinky fingers (which already are pretty loaded doing enter, backspace, shift). Also typing german is very awkward with Dvorak.

I then switched to NEO layout [1] which is optimized for german, programming and english. I never regretted that. For programming, NEO is superb. It gives you 3 different shift keys (each present two times on both halves of the keyboard) thereby allowing a lot of punctuation and other special keys being typed blindly without much moving of the hand.

Switching back to occasionally work on a qwerty keyboard was impossible at first. But eventually I got used to that and I can now go forth and back and adjust within minutes. Though qwerty typing speed and accuracy is much lower than my NEO speed and using qwerty generally feels frustrating.

[1] https://www.neo-layout.org/

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#93

Post by resu_nimda »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #85
resu_nimda wrote: post #79

Keyboard layouts are incredibly fascinating. For the amount of typing that is done today it feels like we are collectively still in the Dark Ages of textual input. A while ago on HN there was link to a talk from a stenographer (the people who do court reporting and other live transcription). They achieve the highest WPM by using a smaller keyboard and pressing "chords" of multiple keys at the same time, which map to…

One argument goes: Stenographers need to optimise for input speed, almost everyone else doesn’t have that requirement. Another argument goes: we don’t know what creativity might be enabled if everyone had that option / ability. I’ve always thought fingertip and finger joint implants would make good contacts for chord-like input. Ideas are cheap though.

Stenographers need to optimise for input speed, almost everyone else doesn’t have that requirement.

Right, max WPM isn't necessarily everything (though it's a pretty good proxy for overall effectiveness of the tool), what's more interesting is the way the device can adapt to the user. The programmers complaining about the symbol keys could create mappings that make those easier/more natural (combined with a device with a more ergonomic form factor). Technically you can kind of do this with a regular keyboard via macros/expansions/remapping but it would work a lot better if the with a device that was designed with that in mind.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#94

Post by Cthulhu_ »

trisiak wrote: post #51

I too suffered from wrist pain and fatigue in the past. The experimentation with different layouts helped a little but it felt like micro-optimization. What actually resolved the problem was switching to an unorthodox ergonomic keyboard where none of the keys required straining or unnecessary effort (kinesis advantage, using a different one these days). Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special k…

I had a Kinesis Advantage some ten years ago at my first job, as well as a vertical mouse; they didn't work for me in the end. Good keyboard, but it didn't fix my RSI issues.

What did help a lot was a Mac wireless keyboard (flat profile) and weight lifting, especially deadlifts that at first I couldn't do much of because of grip strength. Couldn't do pushups either due to wrist pain. But my grip strength quickly improved (I could do without the grip straps after just four or five sessions) and the wrist pain went away.

It's making a comeback now though, I've been working on a regular keyboard for a while due to working from home and haven't been in a gym for months now.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#95

Post by underyx »

trisiak wrote: post #51

I too suffered from wrist pain and fatigue in the past. The experimentation with different layouts helped a little but it felt like micro-optimization. What actually resolved the problem was switching to an unorthodox ergonomic keyboard where none of the keys required straining or unnecessary effort (kinesis advantage, using a different one these days). Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special k…

> Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special keys (shift, ctrl, backspace, enter) and that's not something colemak, dvorak or their friends seem to be addressing.

You're still mostly right, but Colemak does actually move Backspace to the Caps Lock key, which is a change I'd recommend to every single person who types on a computer keyboard.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#96

Post by clarry »

thenoblesunfish wrote: post #86

DON'T DO IT* I absolutely love Workman. It's gorgeous. I spent months learning it, getting fast with it. I even got the supercool matrix style keyboard, I was so into it. But now I use QWERTY, and I sold my matrix style keyboard. Why? 1. Using the standard is useful. Other people's computers use QWERTY. Terminals for typing things in airports use QWERTY. When you have to do first aid stuff on your system, you're not…

DO IT!

Don't use other people's toothbrushes. Don't fly; even if you sometimes do, don't base your life choices around airport terminals or ATMs. Do your computer first aid with a keyboard that has your layout built in so there's no need to change it. Qwerty is actually bad.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#97

Post by toyg »

shirro wrote: post #23

A lot of keyboards optimize the wrong things at least as far as programming is concerned. All the optimizations seem to focus on letters but most of the time an editor or shell can auto complete keywords or identifiers. A ridiculous number of symbols seem to be a very long way from the home keys on weak fingers with modifiers required to access them. If I had to write huge amounts of plain prose and had RSI I think I…

I totally agree, Colemak didn't help me there, my rate of mistakes for special characters is still way too high.

There are keyboards that move special characters to their own layer, basically using a meta key for all of them. I'm tempted to try something like that, but stealing meta-combinations is always painful (probably the best candidate would be CapsLock, which I tend to remap to Cmd/Ctrl but never actually got in the habit of using as such) and as far as I know there isn't anything remotely standard, which would make it awkward in the long run.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#98

Post by cuddlybacon »

dmix wrote: post #36
lwb wrote: post #24

Looks very interesting, but re-learning how to type is so painful, not to mention devastating to my productivity at work, that I think I can only afford to do it once in a lifetime... I recently made the switch from QWERTY to Dvorak, during a 2 week period while I was in between jobs, and it was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done. Over a month later and I'm back up to a plodding 60 WPM (from a glorious…

I was curious about vim as well. I wonder if the defaults of vi are somehow optimized for QWERTY. This thread convinced me to try switching to Dvorak but I'm a bit scared after reading your comment. It's not clear from your comment, did you switch back to QWERTY or are you still giving it a shot?

> I wonder if the defaults of vi are somehow optimized for QWERTY.

Only hjkl for movement. Everything else is fine.

I still wouldn't make the switch again. You'd get more millage from spending the ~2 weeks doing a bunch of speed typing practice with qwerty.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#100

Post by cuddlybacon »

thenoblesunfish wrote: post #86

DON'T DO IT* I absolutely love Workman. It's gorgeous. I spent months learning it, getting fast with it. I even got the supercool matrix style keyboard, I was so into it. But now I use QWERTY, and I sold my matrix style keyboard. Why? 1. Using the standard is useful. Other people's computers use QWERTY. Terminals for typing things in airports use QWERTY. When you have to do first aid stuff on your system, you're not…

+1

I'm a dvorak user who wouldn't do it again if I had the chance.

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