Live data from Hacker News

Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

workmanlayout.org

21–30 of 233 posts

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#21
post #4
post #2

Is it just me or is it missing arrows entirely?

This isn’t a physical keyboard. The layout is just a mapping in software. The arrows are unchanged, so they’re not included in the diagram. Whether they actually appear on your keyboard is a separate question.

Ah, I thought this was a hip new 60% keyboard layout!

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#22
post #3
post #2

Is it just me or is it missing arrows entirely?

Not all keyboard layouts use arrows. Long time ago keyboards did not have arrows. Nowadays, some keyboards use function key to switch some keys to their alternative function, including arrows. This is true especially with 40% keyboards where there is just no real estate for arrows and to some extent with 60% keyboards.

I'm aware, I've owned a few 60% keyboards. As a non-vim developer, it's not fun for programming, to say the least, though I do get to practice some hand contortions.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#23
A lot of keyboards optimize the wrong things at least as far as programming is concerned. All the optimizations seem to focus on letters but most of the time an editor or shell can auto complete keywords or identifiers. A ridiculous number of symbols seem to be a very long way from the home keys on weak fingers with modifiers required to access them. If I had to write huge amounts of plain prose and had RSI I think I would just dictate it rather than try and optimize the alpha layout.

I have been tempted to get a large ortho (lots of modifiers suck) and setup a split qwerty with a heap of symbols in the center columns between them. I type '"[]{}().= all day so I don't get why they should be marginalized. It is like expecting an accountant to use the 1-0 row instead of a numpad.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#24
Looks very interesting, but re-learning how to type is so painful, not to mention devastating to my productivity at work, that I think I can only afford to do it once in a lifetime...

I recently made the switch from QWERTY to Dvorak, during a 2 week period while I was in between jobs, and it was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done. Over a month later and I'm back up to a plodding 60 WPM (from a glorious 120 with QWERTY). Not to mention how shot my vim keybindings are!

Maybe if I eventually switch again it will be less painful, but the experience has taught me that typing is almost 100% an exercise in muscle memory.

Anyway, my point is, I wish I could be the kind of person that could type fluently in multiple keyboard layouts, if nothing else then just for the heck of it, but I'm not sure I'll ever have the kind of time to make that happen. Cool project though! There are certainly words and bigrams that are needlessly hard to type in Dvorak.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#25
I'm amazed that people are able to quickly "try out" new keyboard layouts. I'm not a particularly good typist as it is. I feel like a new layout would take months of infuriating practice and lost productivity to learn.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#26
post #11

I'd love to see a rigorous analysis of whether this type of keyboard layout really reduces repetitive stress injuries. The metrics presented are interesting, but the reduced finger movement could be a bug rather than a feature. Small micro-stretching by having to reach for keys could actually be beneficial.

I think this is a very good and very underrated point. I'd like to see some evidence why there's any reason to assume repetitive movement with less stretching is somehow less harmful than repetitive movement with more stretching. I've been typing on the qwerty layout for about twenty-five years at this point, and I'm up to around 110WPM, so it would really take a gigantic amount of evidence for me to be bothered with trying to rewrite all of that muscle memory. There seems to be a tacit assumption that these alternate layouts improve something that qwerty is doing wrong, but as it stands I'm not convinced that premise has any merit.

Still an interesting article, none the less.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#27
post #16
post #9

I'm using a similar layout (Norman) that was derived from the Workman analysis. https://normanlayout.info/about.html It was a bit easier to learn because most of the keys are on the same finger as on qwerty, but with the rows swapped. For me the biggest problem with using an alternate layout is that the hjkl vim movement keys are scattered.

I consider my .vimrc-fu as only beginner, but can't you remap the keys so NIOH act as HJKL?

Which becomes pretty annoying if you regularly work over remote SSH sessions to large number of hosts where you may not be the only person on a given user.

(You could have some local shorthand to copy over your vimrc and explicitly start vim with a different copy, at which point you'll only have problems with shared tmux/screen sessions)

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#28
Slightly OT, but I just now realized that I rarely actually use my pinky finger to type (particularly on the right). Left pinky: ctrl/shift (and sometimes but not always "a"), Right pinky: enter and "/".

I usually shift my ring/middle finger around to compensate. If you asked me yesterday if I touch type "correctly" I would have said yes, but apparently I'm pretty sloppy with what fingers go where and my brain fills in the gaps without me realizing it.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#29

An oversight in the layout, in my mind—the human hand is better at typing in certain directions… the hands very naturally roll towards the center, but it is less natural to rotate away from the center. This is… somewhat covered in the article under SHU… > It is much more efficient to ride the momentum of a single arm or wrist stroke and type a combo rather than just one key. Try ASDF versus FDSA on a QWERTY layout. A…

> Try ASDF versus FDSA on a QWERTY layout. ASDF feels much more natural, doesn't it? It doesn't for me. Is it significantly more difficult/awkward? Maybe I'm used to it from playing scales on piano?

That could be it. I'm also a piano player and I think inward finger rolls are overestimated on computer keyboards.

Dvorak also favours hand alternation, which I find appeals to me more. Unfortunately, Dvorak is not well suited to my native tongue (due to differences in letter frequencies) so I ended up learning Colemak instead, which also heavily emphasises inward finger rolls.

Post reply on HN