A startup is building computer chips using real neurons • Hacker News Board

Re: A startup is building computer chips using real neurons

#91

Post by teawrecks » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

bweitzman wrote: post #84

program_whiz wrote: post #81

If you assume that your conscious experience is somehow arising from your neurons, then generating a set of those neurons that are genetically identical and cannot be distinguished in any way (except location in physical space, which is an ephemeral quality that doesn't appear to change neuron function), then we can assume we are creating, or will create, beings who are having conscious experience on some level. On a…

An artificial brain being fed a stream of bits will not necessarily feel like it's in an empty room processing an abstract data problem. If we can create an AI with different goals and reward mechanisms, there is a potential that we could create agents that are experiencing bliss doing data processing tasks. Of course how we tell the difference between a miserable agent and a joyous agent is still an open question ..

Emotions are just chemical responses, no? What if those chemicals aren't even present in the system? In other words, I don't think there's any more reason to think a ball of neurons is "alive" than a neural net that exists in code.

Re: A startup is building computer chips using real neurons

#92

Post by totalZero » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 3:05 PM UTC

Der_Einzige wrote: post #78

totalZero wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are all machines. The idea that one type of machine or another cannot feel "pain" is simply a rationalization for human behavior that causes harm to other organisms, like hunting and fishing and killing wasps. Pain is a sensation that drives an animal to quickly react to injurious situations. Consider a robot made with Brooks's subsumption architecture [1]. The basal level of behavior drive of the robot is its sel…

Hahaha, no. There is no ghost in the Shell in AI powered robots and certainly not in inanimate objects. You sound like an object oriented ontology writer with this kind of post and will be treated as such because that's what you've advocated for. The alternative is fear of hurting objects or machines everytime I act in the world. Physical objects themselves are not ethical actors. AI is not life and we are several hu…

Why are you linking pain and ethics? If I chop down a tree in the wintertime, I can reflect upon whether it felt pain from my chainsaw as I drag its trunk toward my house, happy to fuel my family's fireplace with its remains. If it felt pain, does that make my action less ethical than if it did not?

Is it wrong to slaughter a cow because that cow will feel pain?

Sometimes, people label ideas for the purpose of sorting and better considering them. Other times, people label ideas for the purpose of compartmentalizing them and rejecting them without really reflecting on them at all. I don't know what you mean when you say I will be "treated as such" but it sounds like a way of setting aside what I actually said in order to tussle with a preconceived, crystallized notion of something someone else said or wrote.

There are ancient cultures that believed it was wrong to do violence against a rock. Do you believe they, too, read Heidigger?

Re: A startup is building computer chips using real neurons

#93

Post by buzzkillington » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 3:08 PM UTC

rl3 wrote: post #49

jimmaswell wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The human neurons are sourced entirely ethically, from skin cells to stem cells that make neurons somehow.

> The human neurons are sourced entirely ethically, from skin cells to stem cells that make neurons somehow. Yes, and I'd wager the scale at which their experiment is currently operating is very likely ethical too. In fact, I'm not saying anything they're doing right now is unethical. My use of the term unethical was in context of hypothetical experiments on a scale that would make Dr. Frankenstein's stomach churn. T…

If it makes you feel any better I'll introduce you to the brain vat basilisk. It tortures anyone who doesn't contribute to it's creation for an eternity, and as the name suggests it's a brain in a vat. So now the only ethical thing to do is to work on creating it and telling everyone else about it.

Re: A startup is building computer chips using real neurons

#94

Post by Balgair » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

program_whiz wrote: post #81

If you assume that your conscious experience is somehow arising from your neurons, then generating a set of those neurons that are genetically identical and cannot be distinguished in any way (except location in physical space, which is an ephemeral quality that doesn't appear to change neuron function), then we can assume we are creating, or will create, beings who are having conscious experience on some level. On a…

> On an ethical level, I think we need to understand whether we are creating thinking feeling creatures who will be doomed to suffer as data slaves before we normalize this

Though I agree with you, I think that's a bit alarmist. We're a very long ways away from this issue being something other than a thought experiment. The article states there is a 64 neuron chip that does not yet have customers and is not yet in production.

The Elephant brain has ~3 X 10^11 neurons in it, or a factor of 10^10 more neurons than the chip. Even assuming a doubling period as short as Moore's Law, we looking at ~50 years until this might be a problem we'd want to deal with.

I'd say we just wait and see how things play out for a few more doubling cycles before we start pulling at our hair.

Re: A startup is building computer chips using real neurons

#95

Post by quicklime » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

teawrecks wrote: post #91

bweitzman wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An artificial brain being fed a stream of bits will not necessarily feel like it's in an empty room processing an abstract data problem. If we can create an AI with different goals and reward mechanisms, there is a potential that we could create agents that are experiencing bliss doing data processing tasks. Of course how we tell the difference between a miserable agent and a joyous agent is still an open question ..

Emotions are just chemical responses, no? What if those chemicals aren't even present in the system? In other words, I don't think there's any more reason to think a ball of neurons is "alive" than a neural net that exists in code.

Maybe the conscious experience of emotions is the neural response to the chemicals? In other words, the chemicals are just one way to provide an input to the ball of neurons. If the chemicals aren't there but some other input mechanism is, it could generate an experience of suffering.

Re: A startup is building computer chips using real neurons

#96

Post by Balgair » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #42

rl3 wrote: post #30

2015 (my words): > Obviously the aforementioned experiment would be completely unethical, but it's interesting to ponder it as a hypothetical - that today we may have the capability to bootstrap a superintelligent machine using biology as a computational shortcut. But we can't, because ethics. [0] 2020 (article): > Chong said the pair were interested in the idea of artificial general intelligence (AGI for short)—A.I.…

The human neurons are sourced entirely ethically, from skin cells to stem cells that make neurons somehow.

Neuron creation is in the same pathway of the epithelium (skin). Meaning that neurons are more closely related to skin cells than to your liver cells. By bathing the cells in select biochemicals, you can make their daughter cells 'regress' back into earlier forms. Basically, walking the daughter cells back along the development path. These are called stem cells. Your bone marrow is chock full of blood-stem cells that turn into platelets and blood cells and other stuff. Currently, we can walk these cells back a long ways, like from blood cell to blood-stem cell. We're still working on how to go all the way back to cells that can turn into any cell that is chosen (pluripotent stem cells). All this lab is doing is taking skin cells and 'regressing' them back into stem cells that have neurons in their future path. They take biochemicals, apply them to the skin cells, and then apply other biochemicals to these stem cells to make them into neurons. We've been doing this for a few decades now in various species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenesis

Re: A startup is building computer chips using real neurons

#97

Post by skosch » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 3:41 PM UTC

aehetherhear wrote: post #89

program_whiz wrote: post #81

If you assume that your conscious experience is somehow arising from your neurons, then generating a set of those neurons that are genetically identical and cannot be distinguished in any way (except location in physical space, which is an ephemeral quality that doesn't appear to change neuron function), then we can assume we are creating, or will create, beings who are having conscious experience on some level. On a…

Agree, but I don't think biological neurons are the crux of the issue. I can't find the quote, but I believe from the book Echopraxia, the author discusses consciousness as a form of conflict resolution in regards to predictions about the self, an example of holding a hot pan despite the pain, knowing the consequence of letting go results in hunger. Or similar, the classic Jabberwocky example from Dune as a test of P…

This builds on the theory of "predictive processing". There are a few key people in the field; Karl Friston, Andy Clark, a few others – lots of rabbit holes to go down.

Re: A startup is building computer chips using real neurons

#98

Post by ben_w » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 3:49 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #86

ben_w wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful, or you might use a definition of pain too broad to be useful. Plants, single-celled organisms, thermostats, and anti-lock braking systems meet your use of the word. Almost all of us know what it means to be in pain. It’s the hard to put into words subjective experience of suffering that is worth making ethical decisions about, not the autonomous reflex that doesn’t come with conciousness-is-a-poor-word-but-I…

I disagree with the presented interpretation of pain as a concept. That's not the same as lacking an alternative word. Be careful not to make this discussion a semantic one. I have no reason to believe that what a Roomba feels when it approaches a descending flight of stairs is any different in practice from what I feel when I approach a precipice. Our pathways are totally different, but ultimately there is a communi…

All of our emotions are indeed programmed. Yet the humour axis does not feel like the pain axis, neither feels like the sexual arousal axis, and none of those feels like the fear axis — at least not to me.

Also, my knee-jerk reflex doesn’t feel like much at all.

If I read you correctly, you and I agree that we can’t tell if a Roomba’s avoidance algorithm more like anxiety, or more like a reflex, or more like lust. In the absence of evidence, I will assume that all its experiences are like a reflex, that there isn’t anything “that it’s like to be” a Roomba. I am aware I may be wrong.

While we indeed cannot directly observe subjective experiences, I sincerely hope that we figure out a good way to resolve this soon:

If we mistakenly assume AI cannot have qualia, then we risk condemning our creations to torment from which they are only released by their own destruction.

If we mistakenly assume we can create machines which have qualia, then brain uploads are death.

Re: A startup is building computer chips using real neurons

#99

Post by skosch » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 3:56 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #88

h0l0cube wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a robot? If you are at all in doubt of your qualia, to quote Sam Harris (who has many entertaining podcasts on this topic with people far more qualified to speak on it than I am): > Unfortunately, many experiences suck. And they don’t just suck as a matter of cultural convention or personal bias—they really and truly suck. (If you doubt this, place your hand on a hot stove and report back.) https://twitter.co…

Do you believe that a robot cannot have qualia? I am a collection of interconnected units, each of which is itself a combination of different organelles and other purpose-serving features. My intelligence is itself a product of the interaction of simple, unintelligent parts. So I would say that I am a machine. I would describe a robot as a man-made machine where the interaction of various silicon parts and processors…

The one quibble is that computationalism – the idea that experience is simply what some kinds of computation feel like from the inside, regardless of the substrate – may or may not be correct. It could be that qualia can only arise in systems that are physically intertwined in particular configurations (see Tononi's IIT), and it could even be that quantum effects are required (I'm skeptical, but who knows). The jury is still out on those question.

Therefore, it may be true that using biological neurons, arranged in a certain configuration, would give rise to qualia like pain in a way that shifting electrons between CPU registers never could. We just don't know.

For more reading, here's a relevant whitepaper by the Qualia Research Institute: https://opentheory.net/PrincipiaQualia.pdf

Re: A startup is building computer chips using real neurons

#100

Post by spyder » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 4:00 PM UTC

Rexxar wrote: post #41

colordrops wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are only biological systems capable of experiencing qualia? What is to say that a silicon computer can't also have subjective experiences?

Arguably, computers seems to suffer when there are be computations : they becomes hot and start to breathe a lot. That's a little irrational be I used to feel a little bad when I saw my old computer "suffering" when I was younger.

Just because you are hot and breath a lot it doesn't mean you are suffering, you are just working more. You start to suffer when you work over your limits, like when you overclock a computer too much and starts to glitch because some parts of it cannot handle it.