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Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

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Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#91

Post by dr-detroit »

mulmen wrote: post #29
hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

Apparently they can be used as collateral between criminals for loans. They can also be used as an insurance policy if the criminal is ever caught. Offer to exchange the art for a lesser sentence. A literal get out of jail free card.

This. It takes more than a few cryptocurrency transactions to launder your drug money in 2020. A raid on a museum like this really makes me worry that the designer handbag market is not going to retain value as well as was promised. No, seriously: after the bottom fell out on the reserved list for magic cards these people are all moving to handbags.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#92

Post by dr-detroit »

predators372 wrote: post #30
hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

It may not be presented to prospective buyers under truthful conditions.

Everyone in the art world knows everything is probably forged and they all cant say anything so its not going to be taken seriously when it emerges

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#93

Post by DonHopkins »

OrangeMango wrote: post #67
joncalhoun wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think plausible deniability works on one-of-a-kind artwork. Even if you assume your dealer is legit, any cursory research will tell you it was stolen. It would be like buying the secret formula for Coca-Cola and claiming you didn't know it was stolen because it went through multiple middlemen.

You can always claim to have purchased a "professional-quality" reproduction from a "reputable" dealer.

You could claim you were hustled!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hustle_episodes#Series...

Hustle, S08E02: "Picasso Finger Painting"

Ash and Mickey have tried to capitalise on the theft of a rare Picasso by selling a fake to a well-known collector, Petre Sava (Peter Polycarpou), a vicious Eastern European gangster. They learn too late that Sava who owned the stolen original. Mickey is taken prisoner by Sava, leaving Ash and the others with just a few hours to return the real stolen painting, otherwise Mickey is a dead man. With their usual contacts unable to give any clues, except only the word that a Scottish crew were behind the theft, the gang visit renowned Picasso forger Dolly Hammond (Sheila Hancock) (the one who helped to create the fake). She points them in the direction of the McCrary brothers, the thieves in question, and are told that they stole the original painting for another renowned gangster, Harry Holmes (Martin Kemp). Time is ticking and Mickey is edging closer to death; if the group can't find the real painting, Ash will have to devise a plan that can get him back...

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#94

Post by lonelappde »

stevehawk wrote: post #87
devindotcom wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly as I understand it part of the point is that by stealing the original you are able to create both better counterfeits and a market for them. Think about it — obviously no one will buy a counterfeit "Starry Night" or whatever if it's hanging in a museum. But if it's stolen, all of a sudden there's the possibility that they can buy the original. Not only that, but the counterfeit, created with extensive a…

The irony in that comment is that one of the Soprano actors is actually an artist (painter) and big art buff and scored big on finding a painting at a dealer that "didn't know what he had".. https://news.artnet.com/art-world/sopranos-actor-discovers-1...

This is the plot of _From the Mixed Up Files of Ms Basil E Frankweiler_

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#95

Post by UnpossibleJim »

crazygringo wrote: post #43
hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

From what I've read it's stolen to order. Super rich person really wants that particular painting to hang in a private room where they can enjoy it. And they go through a couple connections for plausible deniability -- buying it from some kind of "dealer" they can "assume" is "legit", and the "dealer" then connects with actual criminals to steal it. If ever caught (unlikely), the thieves and "dealer" take the fall, n…

There are also "backroom" sales, where these sorts of items can be sold in countries who have been embargoed. You trade this type of painting for a ridiculous amount of an embargoed country's goods or something and then you can smuggle this into Russia or China to trade for a non embargoed currency with an oligarch, since oil prices have plummeted. They, in turn, can hold on to it for a few generations, and sell it in grey markets for a good profit and some time.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#96

Post by devindotcom »

stevehawk wrote: post #87
devindotcom wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly as I understand it part of the point is that by stealing the original you are able to create both better counterfeits and a market for them. Think about it — obviously no one will buy a counterfeit "Starry Night" or whatever if it's hanging in a museum. But if it's stolen, all of a sudden there's the possibility that they can buy the original. Not only that, but the counterfeit, created with extensive a…

The irony in that comment is that one of the Soprano actors is actually an artist (painter) and big art buff and scored big on finding a painting at a dealer that "didn't know what he had".. https://news.artnet.com/art-world/sopranos-actor-discovers-1...

That's funny. I know it shouldn't be, but it is always surprising when actors turn out to be very unlike those they portray. Infamous villains played by famously kind people, violent goons played by erudite and talented members of the arts community, etc.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#97

Post by ISL »

jagger27 wrote: post #80
devindotcom wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly as I understand it part of the point is that by stealing the original you are able to create both better counterfeits and a market for them. Think about it — obviously no one will buy a counterfeit "Starry Night" or whatever if it's hanging in a museum. But if it's stolen, all of a sudden there's the possibility that they can buy the original. Not only that, but the counterfeit, created with extensive a…

Couldn’t museums and other art holders create their own authenticated market of accurate clones by giving copiers access?

The ethics of such a practice would be dubious at best.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#98

Post by phpnode »

viklove wrote: post #85
tstegart wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is one of those things people imagine happens, but actually never happens. If it did happen, eventually someone would get caught and we'd see evidence of said secret room and the painting would be recovered from a mansion or something. Instead, they're always recovered from warehouses or behind walls to in attics of crooks.

Yeah, after paying off the local officials to frame it that way. A rich person being accused of theft will tank their reputation, and if they spent $250M for the painting, they'll easily spend $10M to cover it up.

This is pure fantasy, who would spend $250m to acquire a stolen painting that they cannot resell? If it really is rich people buying them the purchase price is going to be a fraction of a percent of the amount you're talking about.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#99

Post by saber6 »

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

> [...] how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting?

I think there are more of them than you are realistically considering. Art theft, while making for attention grabbing headlines, has gone on for thousands of years. Age old thievery just with a different class of buyer at the end of the chain.

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