Measuring manufacturing in $$$ might be a bit misleading. If China makes 4 $10 business shirts for every one $50 business shirt the US makes ... ?
Yeah, it's very non-obvious to the layman that they're talking about value rather than production.
US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent
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Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent
#92While it is true that North America still manufactures great quantities of luxury and high tech stuff, that isn't what is pissing off the populists. They couldn't care less if our manufacturing doubled in terms of dollars of output. What they really want is a return to the highly paid, unionized, tradesperson. To them robots making Chevy trucks matters just as much to their lives as nerds writing software. As product…
I think it's not the tradeperson; it's assembly line worker. Skilled tradesmen like carpenters, welders, plumbers, electricians, etc are doing great. Those who worked on an assembly line are being phased out - those who welded, assembled, pushed the button, snapped together, etc are being replaced by improved technology.
You are right. The reason I worded it as I did is that my friends that are in the trades are mostly millwrights, welders, and other manufacturing related trades.
Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent
#93While it is true that North America still manufactures great quantities of luxury and high tech stuff, that isn't what is pissing off the populists. They couldn't care less if our manufacturing doubled in terms of dollars of output. What they really want is a return to the highly paid, unionized, tradesperson. To them robots making Chevy trucks matters just as much to their lives as nerds writing software. As product…
Maybe this sounds slightly kooky, but... I believe there is no 'solution' to their plight. The timeline until singularity is too short for a complete retooling of the economy. However the pace of development at the higher end is fast enough and explosive enough that we can afford to keep on subsidizing the lower classes with bread and circuses until we reach sentient AI, at which point we will be able to provide ever…
I think we both have the same vision of how the mid-distant future looks.
Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent
#94I forwarded this on to my father who did some excellent source fact checking. I just had to share with HN.
An interesting editorial and comments. I think the Boston Globe is a legit publication, but I was not familiar with Jeff Jacoby. Although he writes well, I became wary at his first reference to the American Enterprise Institute, so I did a little research.
I must admit that my suspicions were confirmed. The sole purpose of the AEI, and similar type organizations on both sides of the political spectrum, is to espouse and promote an ideology. The introduction (Message from the Chairman and President) to their 2010 annual report state, “AFI is showing that liberty, opportunity, and entrepreneurship are not only good economic principles, but moral imperatives.” I have learned to beware whenever anyone claims to know the Truth and talks about “moral imperatives” Such rhetoric has been used to justify the worst atrocities and most hateful acts of terrorism in human history.
I was also unfamiliar with Mark Perry, one of the moral authorities cited by Jacoby. In addition to being a “visiting scholar” at the AEI, Perry is a member of the Board of Directors of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, an orthodoxy right-wing “think tank” based in Michigan.
According to the Michigan Education Association, "The role of the Mackinac Center is to change public opinion and move public policy toward the political right. The Mackinac Center does not conduct neutral or objective scholarship. Rather, it provides the media and government officials with publications designed to promote and advance its conservative agenda." If any doubt remains about Jacoby’s objectivity or the reliability of his sources, a visit to the AEI website reveals their Board of Directors includes none other than The Honorable Richard B. Cheney.
Based on what little I was able learn, Jacoby, a rightwing taking head who was recruited by the Globe to add balance (or the appearance of balance) to their otherwise liberal editorial page, would feel at home in the company of the former VP. In fairness to Jacoby, he is neither a journalist nor a social scientist. His writes editorials that express a point of view. His job does on included conducting scientific research with the intent of objectively depicting reality.
In other words, consider the source. There's nothing more that the captains of industry would like to peddle more than American manufacturing is great. The real story is the jobs have been sent over seas and the executive pay has been increased at the top for efficiency.
Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
Depends on the trade, of course. But tradesmen work on different projects, travel to different areas, work with a range of skills. I guess what I'm trying to say is that tradesmen != manufacturing plant worker. I have a relative with a manufacturing plant. Their strategy is to try and out-niche the chinese. Their chinese competitors can dump finishing product onto the market cheaper than they can buy the raw material…
It's not just about low-cost foreign labor. Chinese staionary energy is dirt cheap (burning dirty subsidized coal doesn't cost a lot) which might be 20% of the cost. And the land might have been free, if the investor had good connections. Oh, and they might have cheap loans. The costs are raw materials, energy, capital, and labor. Labor isn't the only factor. But people accept the $1/hour = 20X cheaper myth, and buy…
Well, most of the USA will be using coal powered energy as well, as most USA energy is coal powered. Same goes for Australia, which is even higher percentage coal power.
As for free land - many large plants have been setup in the USA with essentially free land, and essentially free capital. Not all, mind you, and not all in China would be the same. But then business in China has high costs in other areas, such as bribery and corruption.
In the end, it mostly comes down to labour costs (and availability) when you're doing a labour intensive manufacturing process. The other thing that is being lost is even the ability to compete based on knowledge. Running factories takes time, expertise and experience. New factories aren't opening, people aren't learning how to run them. It's the trend that worries me, over the raw numbers.
Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
It depends on the economy, Australian tradespeople make the same if not more than good coders right now. We're growing so fast the demand for those skills is high and shows no signs of dropping off.
I spent most of highschool being told that if I didn't study sooper dooper hard, then I would not go to university. I would be doomed to be ... (horror film scream) ... a tradie!! Well gosh, I worked hard and got into a good uni. I became depressed (for reasons unrelated to my studies) and gave it away for a few years, but now that I have the degree and job I earn about as much as a 4th-year apprentice can down at th…
Indeed - many of my friends, through coincedence and fate, turned out to be tradespeople. Without exception, every single one is what I would consider well positioned money wise given their education level.
The reasons I prefer IT is that I like working inside, and I prefer not having to use obscenities to get my job done. But I cannot say that I am better off in the salary stakes (or the ability to build a business) than those I knew who went into building trades. Some I know are now running multi-million dollar turnover businesses they have bootstrapped themselves. Compared to those who studied a less applied degree (such as 'business' or 'arts') are way behind those who did an apprenticeship and worked hard.
Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent
#97A lot of people don't understand this. I'm an English grad student, and one of my more, uh, politically-minded professors said in a seminar that the U.S. doesn't manufacture anything anymore. I sent him this e-mail: When I mentioned the bit about the U.S. continuing to manufacture a lot of stuff, I wasn't just trying to be a pain, as it's actually true; see Dept. of Labor Data on the subject here: http://research.stl…
That's not really correct tho. Here's a handy graph showing the United States manufacturing output as percentage of overall GDP versus percentage of workforce employed in manufacturing: http://yelnick.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c563953ef01310fc3f3ee... You'll notice that the output, as a percentage of the overall economy, has remained relatively flat. Jobs, on the other hand, have taken an absolute nose-dive. What's rea…
Do you have a similar graph for agricultural output and employment?
Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent
#98I was reading about how the US now considers McDonalds hamburgers to be part of US manufacturing output, whereas in the past that was credited as service since it was a restaurant. So we must ask. Does the claim made by boston.com include hamburgers?
That's nonsense. This never happened. If you are going to make an extraordinary claim like that, take a moment to find a source.
Citations:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/20/politics/main60133... http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/20/business/in-the-new-econom...
I await your apology.
Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's nonsense. This never happened. If you are going to make an extraordinary claim like that, take a moment to find a source.
Citations: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/20/politics/main60133... http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/20/business/in-the-new-econom... I await your apology.
No where in those articles does it state that making hamburgers has been treated as manufacturing.
In fact the cbs article says "The report does not recommend that burger-flippers be counted alongside factory workers."
There was a report that discussed definitions and how they affected things like tax breaks. The news articles had fun speculating how it would help labor statistics if they did start counting these as manufacturing jobs. But it was just speculation. Wild speculation.
Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
Citations: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/20/politics/main60133... http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/20/business/in-the-new-econom... I await your apology.
No where in those articles does it state that making hamburgers has been treated as manufacturing. In fact the cbs article says "The report does not recommend that burger-flippers be counted alongside factory workers." There was a report that discussed definitions and how they affected things like tax breaks. The news articles had fun speculating how it would help labor statistics if they did start counting these as…
"According to a White House report, new manufacturing jobs might be as close as your nearest drive-thru." is somewhat telling, as is the message in the report that if you agree you are a manufacturer, you get tax breaks.
It's had an effect in what has been since classified as manufacturing. Here's a slide show regarding McDonalds' operations in India.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/27447277/MC-DONALDS
Procurement of raw materials: •Vegetables from Ludhiana (Punjab) •Chicken from Mumbai (Maharashtra) •French fries from USA •Valla Mine fish from New Zealand
PROCESS The food manufacturing process at McDonalds is completely transparent and the whole process is visible to the customers.