US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent • Hacker News Board

Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent

#21

Post by uytrhyujkujhy » Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 2:27 AM UTC

bugsy wrote: post #10

I was reading about how the US now considers McDonalds hamburgers to be part of US manufacturing output, whereas in the past that was credited as service since it was a restaurant. So we must ask. Does the claim made by boston.com include hamburgers?

It also misses a lot of chinese industry. It's somewhat harder to track the business operations of a Chinese army owned construction company than a US NYSE listed engineering firm.

In $ terms there is also a big gap. The Boston big dig costs $22Bn, while a similar project undertaken by chinese army conscripts is likely to cost 1/100 of that, it doesn't mean that the US industry is 100x bigger or better - just 100x as expensive

Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent

#22

Post by uytrhyujkujhy » Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 2:29 AM UTC

D_Alex wrote: post #16

Measuring manufacturing in $$$ might be a bit misleading. If China makes 4 $10 business shirts for every one $50 business shirt the US makes ... ?

Then that shows that the US industrial output is bigger. That's why Germany makes $50,000 cars and Mexico makes $15,000 ones

Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent

#23

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 2:39 AM UTC

uytrhyujkujhy wrote: post #8

jseliger wrote: post #5

A lot of people don't understand this. I'm an English grad student, and one of my more, uh, politically-minded professors said in a seminar that the U.S. doesn't manufacture anything anymore. I sent him this e-mail: When I mentioned the bit about the U.S. continuing to manufacture a lot of stuff, I wasn't just trying to be a pain, as it's actually true; see Dept. of Labor Data on the subject here: http://research.stl…

It's not necessarily good though. A multi-billion $ weapons system built in America for the US taxpayer, even if it is never deployed or even abandoned, counts as a $Bn manufacturing output. As a famous economist said - from a GDP point of view the ideal person is someone undergoing cancer treatment during an expensive divorce

[deleted]

Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent

#24

Post by dantheman » Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 2:46 AM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #6

While it is true that North America still manufactures great quantities of luxury and high tech stuff, that isn't what is pissing off the populists. They couldn't care less if our manufacturing doubled in terms of dollars of output. What they really want is a return to the highly paid, unionized, tradesperson. To them robots making Chevy trucks matters just as much to their lives as nerds writing software. As product…

I think it's not the tradeperson; it's assembly line worker. Skilled tradesmen like carpenters, welders, plumbers, electricians, etc are doing great. Those who worked on an assembly line are being phased out - those who welded, assembled, pushed the button, snapped together, etc are being replaced by improved technology.

Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent

#25

Post by nostrademons » Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 2:51 AM UTC

rdouble wrote: post #15

3pt14159 wrote: post #6

While it is true that North America still manufactures great quantities of luxury and high tech stuff, that isn't what is pissing off the populists. They couldn't care less if our manufacturing doubled in terms of dollars of output. What they really want is a return to the highly paid, unionized, tradesperson. To them robots making Chevy trucks matters just as much to their lives as nerds writing software. As product…

Tradespeople do fine in areas where the economy is good. They are still highly paid and unionized. My friend welds staircases in the Bay Area and gets paid more than most programmers. Is there really a case where an electrician or pipe fitter today makes a lower wage than they did in 1970? If anyone's salaries in the USA have remained stagnant or dropped, it's the average engineer.

Engineers do fine.

It's the line workers in factories and people in service jobs that have gotten screwed. It used to be that you could make a steady middle-class income as a factory worker, airline stewardess, or retail clerk. Not so much now. Tradespeople and professionals have done okay because they have marketable skills that accrue to their person, but people whose only assets are owned by their employers haven't done so well.

Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent

#26

Post by gscott » Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 2:53 AM UTC

uytrhyujkujhy wrote: post #8

jseliger wrote: post #5

A lot of people don't understand this. I'm an English grad student, and one of my more, uh, politically-minded professors said in a seminar that the U.S. doesn't manufacture anything anymore. I sent him this e-mail: When I mentioned the bit about the U.S. continuing to manufacture a lot of stuff, I wasn't just trying to be a pain, as it's actually true; see Dept. of Labor Data on the subject here: http://research.stl…

It's not necessarily good though. A multi-billion $ weapons system built in America for the US taxpayer, even if it is never deployed or even abandoned, counts as a $Bn manufacturing output. As a famous economist said - from a GDP point of view the ideal person is someone undergoing cancer treatment during an expensive divorce

And many of those components going into these products come from elsewhere. A manufacturing company I worked with bought parts from all over the world and had few US parts. When I tried to increase the number of parts they were using from the US they said good luck and I failed because nothing was available and no one wanted to make what I wanted (for example I wanted 1,000 metal tubes bent, to make them into legs... there were plenty of places that I visited could do it but they didn't want to so it ended up being done in Mexico).

Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent

#27

Post by Dramatize » Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 3:01 AM UTC

MarkSimpson wrote: post #17

hartror wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the economy, Australian tradespeople make the same if not more than good coders right now. We're growing so fast the demand for those skills is high and shows no signs of dropping off.

Yeah. My brother just finished his apprenticeship in cabinet making and is already on more than me, a programmer. Unions don't have anything to do with it, either - I don't think he's even in one - it's just that the demand for tradesmen is so high over here. Hence the rise in cashed up bogans.

More so with our natural disasters creating huge demand for tradies.

Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent

#28

Post by uytrhyujkujhy » Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 3:03 AM UTC

gscott wrote: post #26

uytrhyujkujhy wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not necessarily good though. A multi-billion $ weapons system built in America for the US taxpayer, even if it is never deployed or even abandoned, counts as a $Bn manufacturing output. As a famous economist said - from a GDP point of view the ideal person is someone undergoing cancer treatment during an expensive divorce

And many of those components going into these products come from elsewhere. A manufacturing company I worked with bought parts from all over the world and had few US parts. When I tried to increase the number of parts they were using from the US they said good luck and I failed because nothing was available and no one wanted to make what I wanted (for example I wanted 1,000 metal tubes bent, to make them into legs...…

From a macro economic point of view it doesn't matter

If your stealth bomber uses $100 parts made in the USA or $10 parts from china with the difference going in the CEOs bonus - doesn't make any difference when the taxpayer is billed $1000

Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent

#29

Post by grav1tas » Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 3:21 AM UTC

rdouble wrote: post #20

marshray wrote: post #7

Gee I remember when it seemed the US's manufacturing output was orders of magnitude beyond China (and Japan seemed like it was where China is today). Good for China for bootstrapping their economy so effectively, but no one would claim that the US trade deficit was irrelevant to the process either. Even if you believe that China's output is now approaching parity with the US (46 percent is nearly equal on the long te…

Even if you believe that China's output is now approaching parity with the US ... is it not reasonable to ask at what point they're going to start buying some of our stuff in return? They have bought 20% of the US Debt... Edit: 20% of the US debt owned by foreign countries

That's incorrect. They hold 20% of US Debt held by foreign countries. In the total scheme of things I think it amounts to somewhere between 6-9% of the total US debt.

Re: US manufacturing still tops China’s by nearly 46 percent

#30

Post by brc » Mon, Feb 07, 2011, 3:23 AM UTC

hartror wrote: post #12

3pt14159 wrote: post #6

While it is true that North America still manufactures great quantities of luxury and high tech stuff, that isn't what is pissing off the populists. They couldn't care less if our manufacturing doubled in terms of dollars of output. What they really want is a return to the highly paid, unionized, tradesperson. To them robots making Chevy trucks matters just as much to their lives as nerds writing software. As product…

It depends on the economy, Australian tradespeople make the same if not more than good coders right now. We're growing so fast the demand for those skills is high and shows no signs of dropping off.

Depends on the trade, of course. But tradesmen work on different projects, travel to different areas, work with a range of skills.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that tradesmen != manufacturing plant worker.

I have a relative with a manufacturing plant. Their strategy is to try and out-niche the chinese. Their chinese competitors can dump finishing product onto the market cheaper than they can buy the raw materials. Thats' before the value-add of labour is included, with all the attendant taxes and benefits of the labour is paid for as well. The only way they can compete is to develop close relationships and fast turnarounds with their clients and hope like hell that's enough for them to ignore the price discrepancy. It generally depends on the final item being manufactured - anything competing in a fierce marketplace is going to go overseas at some point.

It's the unionised manufacturing sector worker that is getting smashed by low-cost foreign labour. And that is happening across all high-cost labour countries, Australia included.