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Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

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Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#91

Post by Lazare »

baddox wrote: post #9

Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…

> [O]ver the past several days we received credible information [...] that the app was being used maliciously to [...] victimize individuals and property where no police are present.

Okay, but even if true, I've got very credible evidence that Twitter and Facebook (not to mention Safari!) have been used maliciously to victimize individuals and property. Will these apps be banned? If not, why not?

> So then, is the complaint simply that Cook is not providing direct evidence of these claims?

The complaint, I believe, is that nobody (including Cook) believes any of this. I'm sure he did get a message from the Hong Kong authorities (aka, the Chinese government) and at least one user in Hong Kong (aka, also the Chinese government) claiming the things he says they claimed. And he doesn't really believe they are true, but feels compelled to pretend he does, so he sent out the email, and now everyone else is being asked to pretend they're true too.

And Gruber is pointing out that they can't really be true, given the nature of the app. Which is quite right, but of course, it's beside the point. Cook isn't going to read Gruber's blog post, slap his forehead, and go "I've been hoodwinked!" and rescind the decision. He knows what he's doing.

> Is that a reasonable expectation? What evidence could Cook provide that would directly tie violence (we know that Hong Kong protesters have committed violence) to this particular app?

The claim is not that the app facilitated very particular types of violence, which we do not know has occured. (Although again, even if true, that's not a good reason to ban the app.)

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#92

Post by rdlecler1 »

Aloha wrote: post #46
artfulhippo wrote: post #2

Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…

The US isn't a closed market and can't effectively eject Apple from the market. While I disagree with the choice Apple made, it's a very rational one. Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, and massively worse for Apple in the short term. No company should be expected to back or foment a revolution somewhere, from my perspective they're looking out for their own beet…

Let’s call it what it is: bribery and corruption. It’s under the guise of market access, but it’s effectively still a payout by a government to do that you’re told. Apple wants to have it both ways, we are a moral authority in the US where we don’t have to worry about government interference but because we want access to the China market we’ll do whatever the government tells us to do. How much more dependent does China need to be before China can control other behavior it doesn’t like.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#93

Post by capableweb »

ALittleLight wrote: post #90

Are there people working on an open source web app version of this app? I'd love to see if I could involved at some level.

It's a website already, try https://hkmap.live

Which is why I don't understand the outcry coming from what Apple is doing here.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#94

Post by president »

Despegar wrote: post #77
president wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? At least in China, you can probably assume iMessage is back-doored given that iCloud content in mainland China is operated by a Chinese internet company. Apple quietly posted this last week on their support page: "iCloud services in China mainland are now operated by Ch…

Actually we can't assume that at all. It seems I'm going to have to repost this comment a thousand times https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 >Apple has already publicly said in court filings, and under threat of perjury, that they don't make any exceptions for China. From Apple's filing [1]: >Finally, the government attempts to disclaim the obvious international implications of its demand, asserting that an…

If you look at "E. Access to Your Account and Content" section in the Chinese iCloud T&C [1], it seems like there is an extra clause there not present in the same section in the US T&C [2].

"...You understand and agree that Apple and GCBD will have access to all data that you store on this service, including the right to share, exchange and disclose all user data, including Content, to and between each other under applicable law."

Shouldn't this be cause for concern?

[1] https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/icloud/en/gcbd...

[2] https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/icloud/en/term...

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#97

Post by protomyth »

ogre_codes wrote: post #52
protomyth wrote: post #31

Apple's supply chain is China-based. If Apple doesn't pull app, then China's leadership probably shuts down that supply chain. China's leadership doesn't give a damn about Apple or Foxcomm or even the NBA. It's probably a real blow to Tim Cook since he is famous for setting up such an amazing supply chain. He put Apple in such a dangerous position. He caved and made up an excuse.

China isn't going to shutdown Apple's supply chain, that's revenue to Chinese companies. The threat is that they would make it more difficult for Chinese buyers of the iPhone or put regulatory hurdles in front of Apple to make it difficult to sell iPhones in China. China is one of Apple's largest markets.

I honestly don't think Xi cares. He is playing the long game and would rather China buy a Chinese company's product. I bet Apple is replaceable in his eyes.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#98

Post by Despegar »

president wrote: post #94
Despegar wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually we can't assume that at all. It seems I'm going to have to repost this comment a thousand times https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857 >Apple has already publicly said in court filings, and under threat of perjury, that they don't make any exceptions for China. From Apple's filing [1]: >Finally, the government attempts to disclaim the obvious international implications of its demand, asserting that an…

If you look at "E. Access to Your Account and Content" section in the Chinese iCloud T&C [1], it seems like there is an extra clause there not present in the same section in the US T&C [2]. "...You understand and agree that Apple and GCBD will have access to all data that you store on this service, including the right to share, exchange and disclose all user data, including Content, to and between each other under ap…

Apple has said in statements to the press, as well as Tim Cook's interview with Vice, that they retain the keys and that they haven't been made available to GCBD.

>Originally, iCloud data was stored on Apple-controlled servers, with the Cupertino company holding the encryption keys. Apple announced a year ago that this would change to comply with new laws in China, and that data for Chinese iCloud accounts would be moved to a server run by Guizhou-Cloud Big Data (GCBD), a company owned by the provincial government.

>However, I have spoken to Apple today, who confirmed that it still holds the encryption keys, and states categorically that they have not been made available to either GCBD or China Telecom.

https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/18/chinese-icloud-data-china-tel...

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#99

Post by protomyth »

nico_h wrote: post #48
protomyth wrote: post #31

Apple's supply chain is China-based. If Apple doesn't pull app, then China's leadership probably shuts down that supply chain. China's leadership doesn't give a damn about Apple or Foxcomm or even the NBA. It's probably a real blow to Tim Cook since he is famous for setting up such an amazing supply chain. He put Apple in such a dangerous position. He caved and made up an excuse.

That’s a double edged lever. If apple can’t make iPhones in china it can’t employ Chinese citizens, and these jobs move out of the country. So does the investment in training. Though it might clear up the market for local brands.

I'm sure someone will take up the slack.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#100

Post by justforyou »

ab_testing wrote: post #80

It works for me as a share-holder. Apple's iPhone 11 is again popular in China and there are even reports of Apple increasing the 11's production to meet the high demand. Apple should not be doing anything to mess with the Chinese consumers and the Chinese government as China is a very difficult growth market to crack into. I believe that Tim Cook has done a great job of appeasing China and at the same time has worke…

As a shareholder, you are morally bankrupt.
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