Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

spectrum.ieee.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 108 posts

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#91

Post by 6thaccount2 »

claudiawerner wrote: post #88
6thaccount2 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineer here with an anecdotal story. My sibling has a doctorate in liberal arts (teaches at a university and publishes papers) and reads quite a bit and has said similar things on how this aids in critical thinking. They're great in some discussions, but all technology is essentially magic and math is complete gobblegook to this individual. This isn't to say they aren't smart and don't add value to society, but the…

Basic numerical literacy is important for everyone, but it is no exaggeration to say that moral, political and philosophical (and that includes the philosophy of science) development also separates us from far more primitive creatures over centuries. To me it makes equally as much sense to say that all that development is closed off to engineers (and I say this as someone finishing up an engineering degree myself).

First of all, congrats on finishing up your degree!

As a counterpoint to the above, I believe most highschool students can read the publications of many professors in the liberal arts and understand what they're saying (Ex: literary criticism) although it helps to have some background knowledge of the period in question. How many highschool students or even liberal arts professors can read and comprehend practically anything that someone in the engineering department published? My point is that it takes a lot more effort to get a working knowledge of something like physics. Although not everyone can and should be able to read a quantum mechanics textbook, I think the average adult should know about things like entropy. If you don't agree with STEM, at least change the course requirements so that the technically inclined can get more math and science courses under their belt. Your country may already do that, but it isn't super common in the US (public or private schools). My parents forced me to go to Catholic school growing up (public schools were terrible in my area) and this resulted in mandatory 1-hour of daily religion class for 13 years that I could have used for something else I would've preferred (math, science, engineering, programming, philosophy). Regardless of one's views, I question the sheer breadth of the US system over depth.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#92

Post by corodra »

6thaccount2 wrote: post #87
corodra wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you're not wrong. That's the whole point behind a specialized workforce. The whole point to modern society is individuals focus on something and do it, really, really well. We then suffer doing other stuff competently. Other than the occasional hobby gardener, how many tech engineers know how to maintain a vegetable garden? I've asked this to a few people before. They just imagine it's as simple as throwing s…

Engineer here with an anecdotal story. My sibling has a doctorate in liberal arts (teaches at a university and publishes papers) and reads quite a bit and has said similar things on how this aids in critical thinking. They're great in some discussions, but all technology is essentially magic and math is complete gobblegook to this individual. This isn't to say they aren't smart and don't add value to society, but the…

Oh agreed. Specialization isn't perfect. But a lot of engineers, I think, like being "well rounded(?)". Mostly when it comes to making things. But, if you take the youtube channel Tech Ingredients. That dude is like the spirit animal to engineers. The guy can build anything from freezers, AC, jet engines, speakers and even make his own whisky. And again, I'm a sub-par engineer both mechanical and CS, but the problem solving skills and maths I know, there's very little in the real world that I get lost to. To build things out of my skill set, I still have a learning curve, but to me nothing is impossible. And so far, nothing really has been for me. If one human has built it in the past, I know I can eventually do it. But like you said, a liberal arts type, they just really gloss over.

I'd also argue, take a decent engineer in any field. Structural, mechanical, CS, electrical, whatever. Now tell them to teach themselves... oh, I don't know, philosophy? Maybe law. Well, I'd argue law is a more "scientific" version of philosophy because it does have "more hard rules". Me using those quotes are important to understanding what I mean. But, I think an engineer is well suited, after half a decade or a full decade of working, to teach themselves anything. Because that's part of the job. Learn, learn and learn because you're not done learning. Oh, and you need to try learning things that no one else has discovered too. Then learn more. I guess, I just have never seen an LA later learn engineering. But I see engineers learn LA.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#93

Post by corodra »

claudiawerner wrote: post #88
6thaccount2 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineer here with an anecdotal story. My sibling has a doctorate in liberal arts (teaches at a university and publishes papers) and reads quite a bit and has said similar things on how this aids in critical thinking. They're great in some discussions, but all technology is essentially magic and math is complete gobblegook to this individual. This isn't to say they aren't smart and don't add value to society, but the…

Basic numerical literacy is important for everyone, but it is no exaggeration to say that moral, political and philosophical (and that includes the philosophy of science) development also separates us from far more primitive creatures over centuries. To me it makes equally as much sense to say that all that development is closed off to engineers (and I say this as someone finishing up an engineering degree myself).

I do disagree. Many other creatures play politics and morality. Wolves and chimps have power and political struggles all the time. Along with taking care of those injured. But an individual that has a history of taking more than their share and not helping the group doesn't get as much help when injured. They do have their own morality. Whether we agree with it or not, is not really our place. The same type of discussion that brought up when discussing how one country should conduct business as that's an infringement of sovereignty. Even paleolithic hominids (a recent fascination of mine) show culture and morality because of bones with massive fractures that healed over time. Said hominid then lived for many more years. A sign they were taken care of. The more philosophy you learn, the more you realize that we're really not that different. We're just smart enough to see how different we are, but too stupid to realize how similar we are.

So, how is morality, politics and philosophy closed off to engineers? You make it seem that an engineer is pure cold and calculating. That's just a terrible stereotype that, I thought died off quite a while ago. Then again, that stupid ass show The Big Bang Theory kind of brought that idea back.

Engineering teachings teach you to constantly learn. Essential, an engineer is never done learning until they die. This spills over to other topics just fine. The difference is, there's already a skillset of finding accurate and reliable sources, creating your own lesson plans (in a way) and diving into said subject.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#94

Post by rdtwo »

pacaro wrote: post #48
pergadad wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well paid nurses? Which country would that be?

Median income in 2017 was $52k for men and $42k for women [1] Median income for an RN in 2017 was $70k [2] So, in the US it's fair to say that nurse is a moderately well paid job. Of course compared to west coast tech salaries that doesn't look so amazing, but compared to what many life sciences PhDs are earning while fighting for a tenure track job it doesn't look so bad [1] https://www.census.gov/library/publicatio…

There is demand at low wages considering they have to work Long shifts and all hours of the day often rotating between days and nights

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#95

Post by rdtwo »

ModsCtrlideas wrote: post #43
rland wrote: post #30

It seems to me that there is a shortage of qualified employees and yet also a shortage of jobs in every single well-paid, well regarded sector. It's almost as if we want people to train themselves to work doing hard stuff and also don't want to pay them to do it. In other news, water is wet.

Engineering and programming? There is a shortage of people. Plenty of jobs.

No shortage of people only a shortage of people willing to work for less than market rate. Tesla for example can’t hire and keep talented people because it’s well known that wages are modestly low for a job that expects 60+hrs a week in a high col area

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#96

Post by [deleted] »

claudiawerner wrote: post #82
corodra wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you're not wrong. That's the whole point behind a specialized workforce. The whole point to modern society is individuals focus on something and do it, really, really well. We then suffer doing other stuff competently. Other than the occasional hobby gardener, how many tech engineers know how to maintain a vegetable garden? I've asked this to a few people before. They just imagine it's as simple as throwing s…

The whole ideology of capitalist society is that you're supposed to be able to pursue whatever goal you'd like, that you accept the consequences of that decision, and that there is no common good by which individuals should be directed, at least by force. Now I don't think that's the case, obviously, but that's the ideological line. Thus the creation of an "army" of structural engineers would involve some level of co…

[deleted]

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#97

Post by corodra »

6thaccount2 wrote: post #90
claudiawerner wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole ideology of capitalist society is that you're supposed to be able to pursue whatever goal you'd like, that you accept the consequences of that decision, and that there is no common good by which individuals should be directed, at least by force. Now I don't think that's the case, obviously, but that's the ideological line. Thus the creation of an "army" of structural engineers would involve some level of co…

While I can't speak for other commenters, I wonder if we aren't speaking past each other a bit. I don't think anyone should be coerced into a field of study and I'm not sure if the "army" quote from the other poster should be taken literally. I read it as you should make sure society has enough in that basket to maximize welfare for all, but I could be interpreting them poorly. When I hear arguments for STEM, what I…

Yes, that's why I put it in quotes. There should be an appropriate sized pool of specialty-whatever to be effective in a society. But also plus some. Just so you don't have an accidental brain drain. But output is important too. Even though there's lots of hate for commercialized farmer. It now takes less farmers to make X amount of food for a larger amount of non-farmers. But, we can also argue quality and environmental impact of said practices due to such wide scale farming practices.

I think this might have been the early definition of STEM or I'm just an idiot. But I thought it was Sci, Tech, Engineering and Medical. Math just seems redundant to me in that. Because those 4 career fields are for the most part, all well paying and technical. So... yea, I guess... But also, I'm not for the end of art class or anything like that. I actually think music and art need to have a better focus of doing rather than just the history to students. Good for the soul, if you will. Something I've been working on myself recently.

Well, you know the saying that anything technologically advanced enough to someone just seems like it's magic? To me, that's exactly why people need to at least dip their feet into all STEM.

And I think you said it best. Things like philosophy, the humanities and so forth, are a force multiplier. However, no matter how large the number is multiplied against 0, you still get 0. I think STEM is your base score and the rest are force multipliers. My opinion.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#98

Post by Animats »

WalterBright wrote: post #86
Animats wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone with a real CS degree should be able to learn a new toolkit in six months. The "STEM" crisis is from companies not wanting to pay for that six months.

That's not what I meant by fungible. You don't see CS degree'd people moving into electronics, fluid mechanics or mechanical design. The math and mathematical techniques for electronics, fluid mechanics, statics, and kinematics is all the same. For example, a mass/spring/damper system is the same as an inductor/capacitor/resister network.

Good point. Although I have a undergrad CS degree, it's old enough that I got a general engineering education, from thermodynamics to drafting. (A later MSCS at Stanford was 100% CS. And, pre machine learning, did not involve a single floating point multiply. Lots of number theory, no differential equations or statistics.)

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#99

Post by corodra »

damnyou wrote: post #51
6thaccount2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have literally been saying just this for years when someone says "STEAM". At that point, it is just school again. I agree that History, Art, Music, Literature, Philosophy...etc are important and can't imagine a world without them, but the whole point behind STEM was to put a focus on Math and Science because those help us keep our economic edge and solve the world's upcoming problems on the technical side. Providin…

It turns out that those solutions STEM folks have to technical problems have created a whole host of social problems. The pendulum needs to swing the other way.

Bureaucrats are not "STEM folks".

Bureaucrats make education policy.

STEM folks write the guidelines of how it should have been done, then the bureaucrats say "You know what this needs? The critical thinking skills that only liberal arts can provide!"

Then everything is just as fucked as before.

Re: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

#100

Post by rumanator »

damnyou wrote: post #78
Retric wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a question of importance, but abundance. Looking at salaries there is an over abundance of history and social studies graduates. It’s simply a supply vs demand imbalance, and one that has real consequences. Many STEM fields are also over saturated, and some arts fields can make a good career path. But, nuances are not really the point of this discussion.

Yes, you have successfully identified a structural issue with modern capitalism.

Care to point out what you believe is the structural issue?
Post reply on HN