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Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

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Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#91

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

anbop wrote: post #85
shams93 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah there was a great breakdown of this when the representative from Irvine, California grilled CEO Jaimie Dimon, a bank teller who lives in Irvine makes $15 an hour, basically such a person if they have their own apartment will be forced to choose between having food and having a phone. We have kept salaries frozen for so many decades that we have impoverished the majority of working people to a ridiculous level. A…

Why would you expect that a bank teller has their own apartment? Your own apartment isn’t some kind of birthright. I had roommates until I was 27.

Someone who has full time job should have some semblance of independence.

I'm dreading the day that homes are just owned by your employer so you can keep the slaves working for you forever.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#92

Post by Spooky23 »

ianai wrote: post #55
fma wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep... Even car sales increase because people have money for the down-payment. A large population of Americans do not have much savings. Could be bad money management, low paying jobs, bad luck (health issues) etc.

Phht, bad money management. When loan sharks are peddling 450% payday loans people are being taken advantage of by corporations. The government needs to practice better money management, not us private citizens. Close tax loopholes.

Usurious loans are unethical and disgusting. If people aren’t capable of effective money management, that just reinforces that the justifications used by that agency are bunk.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#93

Post by epncs »

anbop wrote: post #85
shams93 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah there was a great breakdown of this when the representative from Irvine, California grilled CEO Jaimie Dimon, a bank teller who lives in Irvine makes $15 an hour, basically such a person if they have their own apartment will be forced to choose between having food and having a phone. We have kept salaries frozen for so many decades that we have impoverished the majority of working people to a ridiculous level. A…

Why would you expect that a bank teller has their own apartment? Your own apartment isn’t some kind of birthright. I had roommates until I was 27.

Having a full time job and not being able to afford to have your own place is simply miserable.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#94

Post by phil21 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #25
mises wrote: post #14

Withholding is an awful idea designed to favor the government over the taxpayer and to psychologically soften the blow of the ridiculous tax rates we pay. It's especially bad with mandatory withholding by the employer. It shouldn't happen. Taxpayers ought to figure out how much they owe and write the check for it at once. This is especially true since consumers can't invest that income or get interest on it: I could…

I felt this way until I asked a tax accountant who said that the majority of taxpayers are just not capable of this discipline, planning, or in some cases math.

That's the entire point though. Those people presumably vote on tax policy, and have zero clue what they pay.

If the majority of the country were constantly being hounded by government tax collectors for being past-due, there would be very little political support for raising taxes in the future.

Right now it's an imaginary percentage the vast majority have no clue of. Ask 10 people in various social circles in your life what their all-in tax rate is. Almost zero will know, and those that think they know are often wildly wrong.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#95

Post by pertymcpert »

ip26 wrote: post #49
wutbrodo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're rather far from discussing any substantive changes in policy, leaving aside the fact that you only have a single vote to cast. This is an incredibly bizarre response to someone making the case that you have a factually inaccurate model of the way policy works. On the other hand, I appreciate your comment in that the psychology on display here is another data point in helping me understand the psychology of how…

someone making the case that you have a factually inaccurate model of the way policy works Your case was basically "trust me, I'm right".

You have no clue how any of this works. Just stop.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#96

Post by gameswithgo »

kartan wrote: post #78
BurningFrog wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will also easier end up poor if you have bad cognitive control.

> You will also easier end up poor if you have bad cognitive control. My personal experience is that many middle class people has little control. But, the effect on them is small. That clothes that they do not need or that extra vacations are not going to make them poor. But, I am sure that in very extreme cases like gambling addiction middle class people can become poor.

humans are gonna be humans, we need societies that work with actual humans and their faults rather than just wishing humans were perfect.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#97

Post by SamReidHughes »

neffy wrote: post #82
Mindless2112 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That tax withholding is the only way that many Americans manage to save speaks more to a lack of self-control than anything else. If Uncle Sam can save a lump-sum for you by deducting from your paycheck, you could have done the same (in fact, better) with a bit of resolve and a bank account.

78% of American workers live pay cheque to pay cheque. I would suggest that of the two possible hypotheses, the one where the system itself doesn't let them do anything else, might be the one more worth examining than the one that betrays a complete lack of empathy with your fellow citizens.

The bottom 78% of incomes varies widely, so we know it's a result of spending, not earning.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#98

Post by mises »

war1025 wrote: post #65
mises wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get this, and also that it's to help prevent the sticker shock of taxes that can lead to serious backlash. With that said, America is not supposed to be a place where the Nanny State must step in to manage people's lives for them simply because they can't do it themselves. I and my fellow citizens should not have to lose money simply because others choose to waste money. I like the comment lotsofpulp made below: "T…

The government doesn't hold anyone's money hostage. You are free to adjust your W-4 withholdings any time you want. They even have an online calculator to estimate your tax burden and set your withholding properly.

Yes they do, because there is still employer withholding. Almost 75% of Americans had too much withheld: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/01/30-million-americans-are-not...

And if you don't believe me on the reducing-sticker-shock part, here's a quote from the Treasury: "it... greatly reduced the taxpayer's awareness of the amount of tax being collected, i.e. it reduced the transparency of the tax, which made it easier to raise taxes in the future."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_withholding_in_the_United_...

It is indeed a very underhanded way to con citizens into putting up with stupidly high taxes.

Oh, and for what it's worth, it hits lower incomes harder because they are less likely to hire tax advisors, fancy accountants, etc. to make sense of it all for them. Maybe we would end up with lower taxes on our poorest, too, if they realized how much they were being robbed.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#99

Post by mises »

ip26 wrote: post #39
wutbrodo wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, I shudder to imagine what shopping sprees politicians might engage in, were they bequeathed with the nation's entire yearly budget in one day! The USG has more flexibility with spending relative to liquid resources than pretty much any entity in the world. I can assure that having tax receipts directly in the bank has nothing to do with the way we spend and would have even less to do with the psycholog…

No offense but I'm not prepared to inform my policy opinions on the basis of your assurance.

He's unfortunately right. I would like to think that slowly disbursing funds over the course of a year would help, but it doesn't. The feds have essentially unlimited capacity to borrow, as evidenced by their constantly running a deficit. It also makes things more expensive in terms of paperwork/administrative bloat on the part of the government, employer, and consumer.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#100

Post by mises »

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #30
mises wrote: post #14

Withholding is an awful idea designed to favor the government over the taxpayer and to psychologically soften the blow of the ridiculous tax rates we pay. It's especially bad with mandatory withholding by the employer. It shouldn't happen. Taxpayers ought to figure out how much they owe and write the check for it at once. This is especially true since consumers can't invest that income or get interest on it: I could…

> Withholding is an awful idea designed to favor the government over the taxpayer I like taxes being withheld from my paycheck. Dealing with taxes can be incredibly confusing, and it's super easy to screw up. If I could choose between taxes being withheld and making payments on my own, I'd seriously consider having the money withheld.

> I like taxes being withheld from my paycheck.

I'm glad you prefer it. With that said, it ought to be a choice for those who prefer it, not a mandatory procedure. This is especially true in that it makes the taxpayer less likely to realize just how much he is paying. Quote from the Treasury: "it... greatly reduced the taxpayer's awareness of the amount of tax being collected, i.e. it reduced the transparency of the tax, which made it easier to raise taxes in the future."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_withholding_in_the_United_...

People pay way too much, and breaking it up into little payments makes them less likely to realize this. It's the same reason salesmen offer it for expensive purchases (cars, iPhones): low payments of $100-$400/mo are much more appealing than a big check all at once.

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