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After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

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Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#91

Post by vonmoltke »

lambda_lover wrote: post #67
breakyerself wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Willing guinea pig here. I'm going to do my best not to die, but I'm excited about this tech and willing to deal with the drawbacks of being an early adopter.

It's great that you're willing to die for Tesla's profit, but you realize that autonomous vehicle-induced crashes affect everyone on the road? Even someone who doesn't consent to Tesla's TOS is still sharing the road with potentially dangerous software. Granted, individual drivers are awful enough that it probably doesn't make that huge a difference in danger. But would you still feel the way if a family member was k…

> But would you still feel the way if a family member was killed in an accident where their human-controlled car was rear-ended by a Tesla?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but appeals to emotion in order to drive irrational thinking do not make for constructive debate.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#92

Post by x38iq84n »

robrenaud wrote: post #38
dragontamer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think neural networks are wired to "remember" things. In theory, they could be hooked up that way. But your typical convolutional neural network is looking at things frame-by-frame. In theory, ANNs could have an output layer that passes data from one frame to another frame to assist things. But there's no real programming to "hardcode" something like object permanence into an ANN. You pretty much throw a bunc…

There are architectures that use CNN on image inputs, and LSTMs across frames of the video to keep memory. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1609.06377.pdf

Thanks (to all in this subthread). I've skimmed through this doc, I have watched https://vimeo.com/274274744 linked from original reddit discussion and I have lost all remaining faith in AP as it is today. This should be in a closed alpha version, not anywhere near paying customers and marketed as FSD ready/feature ready as it's none of that and won't be for many years. I expect there will be at least a generation of Tesla cars sold with FSD-readiness package that will never see FSD in their lifetime.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#93

Post by dv_dt »

bsaul wrote: post #16

I wonder how do unit tests work with NN (or if they're even a relevant concept at all). You could replay some testing video frames and make sure the objects are correctly identified, but i suppose that's already what training is about... If an issue like that resurface, does it mean that the original frames leading to the 2018 accident aren't part of the training (or at least frames from someone driving in this kind…

My first thought was, well someone is in store for a revamp of their regression test suite.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#94

Post by toomuchtodo »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #46
toomuchtodo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a feature, not a bug, and should be expected in life critical systems. Would you want Boeing to push updates out as frequently as Tesla does with the same sparse release notes Tesla provides (“bug fixes”) when safety system functionality is modified? Disclaimer: I own a Model S

This argument would be a bit different if we were losing 30,000 people a year in airliner crashes, instead of approximately zero.

You can still save lives with automotive safety systems and not have a dumpster fire of an SDLC process. There is a spectrum between one firmware update a year and "f* it we'll do it live".

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#95

Post by mikestew »

bdcravens wrote: post #64
mikestew wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Happens with a lot of stuff, certain American-made motorcycles, for instance. You're in the club now, and the only way to stay in the club is to carry the manufacturer's water. In no case are we to admit that we spent a bunch of money on something that does a poor job of fulfilling its advertised purpose.

Or more relevant to the HN audience, Apple.

What, Tesla wasn't relevant enough for you to not take an "obligatory" dig at Apple product owners?

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#97

Post by vkou »

systemspeed wrote: post #79

With demand for self-driving vehicles as high as it is, yet with the lag in advancement of computer vision, I think it's about time for a serious discussion about smart roads. I realize this isn't entirely relevant, but I can't be the only one thinking that we're missing the forest for the trees by trying to solve a transportation problem while simultaneously solving a vision problem.

So, trains?

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#98

Post by Scoundreller »

SilasX wrote: post #7

I would be a lot more forgiving of these screwups if Tesla didn't constantly swear up and down that they've solved self-driving cars. As far back as 2016 they were claiming they had full SDC capability above human driver safety [1], and their recent Model Y announcement suggests that the only thing holding it up is regulatory approval, and not failure to achieve the desired spec. >Model Y will have Full Self-Driving…

> As far back as 2016 they were claiming they had full SDC capability above human driver safety

One crash/incident doesn’t mean it’s less safe than a human driver on average, even if it’s something a human driver might have avoided.

We should expect different failure modes from a machine, but adopt it anyway if it avoids enough human failure modes to make up for it.

Source: my thermostat thought 33C was an acceptable temp once, but I still didn’t switch to full-manual HVAC control.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#99

Post by maxxxxx »

nathanaldensr wrote: post #50
paul7986 wrote: post #22

Scary... software developers at these robotic cars and their mistakes/bugs aren’t just going to bring down a business application(lose money) but kill their customers and innocent drivers. Progress to where it’s safer is going to be a killer and we the drivers on the road are unwilling guinea pigs to billionaires’ dreams/goals.

Unwilling? Don't buy a Tesla. Don't believe the hype. It's that simple. Granted, there is nothing stopping any ECU from killing you, but I'd trust a company like Honda way before Tesla.

"Unwilling? Don't buy a Tesla."

That doesn't protect me from being killed by a Tesla. I am pretty neutral on the topic but I am getting the feeling that they are in danger of pushing out half baked stuff like we tend to do in software. For most things like software this is OK but maybe not for things that are moving at high speeds.

Re: After 6 months of working fine, Tesla software update drives at barriers again

#100

Post by ummonk »

bsaul wrote: post #16

I wonder how do unit tests work with NN (or if they're even a relevant concept at all). You could replay some testing video frames and make sure the objects are correctly identified, but i suppose that's already what training is about... If an issue like that resurface, does it mean that the original frames leading to the 2018 accident aren't part of the training (or at least frames from someone driving in this kind…

Should be using integration tests, not unit tests. I.e. SITL simulations + having the car drive around test circuits / scenarios.
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