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Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

bbc.com

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Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#91

Post by dagenix »

StevePerkins wrote: post #86
zug_zug wrote: post #45

I find it interesting and also confusing how invested random people on the internet are about the outcome of vaccination (which could theoretically cause an issue for a small percentage of the population), as opposed to say climate-denial (which will undisputably cause a much bigger issue for the entire population)

I'm not saying it isn't a legitimate, serious issue. But the echo/amplification effect in some corners (i.e. primarily Reddit and HN) is really fascinating. Kind of a " I feel strongly about a thing, because so many people I interact with feel strongly about the thing " sort of thing. Of all the worthy issues out there today, I'm not sure why Reddit and HN has fixated on this particular one to the extent that they ha…

Maybe because there is nothing stupider than having people die from from preventable diseases due to bunk science?

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#92

Post by alexandercrohde »

StevePerkins wrote: post #86
zug_zug wrote: post #45

I find it interesting and also confusing how invested random people on the internet are about the outcome of vaccination (which could theoretically cause an issue for a small percentage of the population), as opposed to say climate-denial (which will undisputably cause a much bigger issue for the entire population)

I'm not saying it isn't a legitimate, serious issue. But the echo/amplification effect in some corners (i.e. primarily Reddit and HN) is really fascinating. Kind of a " I feel strongly about a thing, because so many people I interact with feel strongly about the thing " sort of thing. Of all the worthy issues out there today, I'm not sure why Reddit and HN has fixated on this particular one to the extent that they ha…

Absolutely. I usually associate the mob mentality over goofy stuff with Reddit (e.g. being mad at some video game company over microtransactions).

I wish somebody could figure out how to channel that passion into the larger issues that face us today.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#93

Post by franch »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #16
southwindcg wrote: post #10

As I mentioned the last time this was posted, the article title is clickbait. The actual ban only applies to children under six. That is to say, hardly any of them. Parents of older children will be fined. "Children up to the age of six years will be excluded from nursery and kindergarten without proof of vaccination under the new rules. Those aged between six and 16 cannot be banned from attending school, but their…

there's a reason however: the limitation comes from our constitution and changing that requires a supermajority that hardly any government had in the last decades. Art. 34. La scuola è aperta a tutti. L'istruzione inferiore, impartita per almeno otto anni, è obbligatoria e gratuita. "(public) schooling is open to everyone" "primary instruction, covering at least eight years, is mandatory and free of charge" there's b…

As an Italian I don't want that article changed for ANY reason. The possibility to exploit any conditionality in art.34 both as an excuse to avoid mandatory education and for privatization of the public school system is really too high. Public schooling must remain free and mandatory without any exemption or special case.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#94

Post by frostburg »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #89
kalleboo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They said that corrupt and ignorant politicians have added unnecessary vaccines to the list of requirements, due to lobbying/collusion with pharma companies FWIW, This is standard anti-vaxxer rhetoric in any country. You see stuff like this anywhere: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeS7VhVWsAABZOJ.jpg

When you say "rhetoric" do you mean it is not true then?

Yes, of course it's a complete fabrication. Big Pharma would pick something with actual profit margins.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#95

Post by everdev »

frostburg wrote: post #43
everdev wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think HN is the place for judging people you've probably never met.

Son of teachers. I'm familiar with the issue at hand (there is basically no reason to homeschool in Italy unless you are in a cult or neglect your child heavily).

> no reason to homeschool in Italy unless you are in a cult or neglect your child heavily

Doubling down? I know plenty of kind, loving people who are actively involved in home schooling and are not affiliated with any cult or religion. I know plenty of wonderful families who choose public school and wonderful families that choose home school.

I think there's more depth and diversity to people who home school than you might be know of. Some choose to travel the world and expose their children to the amazing biological and human diversity of this planet. What an amazing way to participate in your child's growth and build tolerance for people who think and act differently than you do.

As a general rule, it's best not to disparage an entire group of people. I'd be really careful with declarations like those as they can lead to very dehumanizing schools of thought.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#96

Post by michaelt »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #64

In the USA, we have the idea of "informed consent" with regards to medical treatments. The ideal standard is that the doctor tells you what you have, and what ways there are to treat/manage it. Doing nothing is also an answer. Vaccines are no different: some vaccines have some rather nasty side effects. Except in this country, under 42 U.S. Code § 300aa–22, "No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action f…

Child neglect laws mean parents consenting on behalf of their child are held to a higher standard than adults consenting on behalf of themselves.

See Morrison v. State, 252 S.W.2d 97 for example.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#97

Post by frostburg »

everdev wrote: post #95
frostburg wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Son of teachers. I'm familiar with the issue at hand (there is basically no reason to homeschool in Italy unless you are in a cult or neglect your child heavily).

> no reason to homeschool in Italy unless you are in a cult or neglect your child heavily Doubling down? I know plenty of kind, loving people who are actively involved in home schooling and are not affiliated with any cult or religion. I know plenty of wonderful families who choose public school and wonderful families that choose home school. I think there's more depth and diversity to people who home school than you…

Do you live in the United States? I get the impression that the intellectual climate in grade schools in the USA is vastly more problematic (not that it's spotless here).

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#98

Post by RobertRoberts »

purpleidea wrote: post #40

I'm a physiologist, and definitely NOT an anti-vaxxer. Two points: 1) What is the specific list of immunizations that are being mandated? 2) If immunizations are to be mandated, great, however the companies that produce them must also be mandated to be transparent in their research and development. For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. T…

This would be a good start. For some reason there is this irrational belief that there are no side effects or ill-effects from vaccines.

There are a number of doctors I have heard from that say vaccines can cause all kinds of debilitating side effects. But even "questioning" the status quo will get you down-votes, ridicule and draw ad homenim attacks.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#99

Post by hirundo »

It seems that some of the same arguments for mandatory vaccination of people also apply to mandatory upgrades for Windows. E.g. if an exploit is rarely open it would be more rarely attacked, thus giving the herd of Windows computers a kind of immunity, somewhat protecting computers that for whatever reason, can't be upgraded.

Is it therefore reasonable to legally mandate updates or anti virus software for popular operating systems?

Also, since operating system customizations have the potential to defeat such protection, is that valid grounds to ban unapproved changes?

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#100

Post by tw04 »

majewsky wrote: post #88
tw04 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. That's currently not required, they're allowed to cherry-pick results! Why? The alternatives in pretty much all cases are death. Which side effect is better than your child being dead? Or mine for that matter because the collective you (not you personally) decided that risking polio was better than…

> Which side effect is better than your child being dead? This is a very simplistic view given the probabilities involved. For a drastic example, consider a hypothetical treatment that can perfectly prevent a disease that would otherwise kill 1% of those who are treated, but it will blind 100% of them. It's hard to argue that this is a better outcome.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about available vaccines and none of them cause blindness. And the rates of death are far higher than 1%. The probabilities involved are ridiculously in favor of vaccination. Literally the exact opposite of what you claim.

Making up completely ridiculous examples to just justify anti-vaxxer idiocy should stay on Facebook.

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