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I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

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Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#91

Post by lnanek2 »

namlem wrote: post #34
gotocake wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of sleep, sudden change of routine, total immersion in a new mindset, and withholding food is the classic playbook of cult indoctrination. The point is to weaken existing barriers that would otherwise keep people aloof, disengaged, and instead create a total experience. I’m not claiming that a meditation retreat is a cult indoctrination, at least not most of the time. It does however share some commonalities wit…

There's never been any sleep or food deprivation at any retreat I've been to. They keep an early schedule because that's what they used to. The routine that parent described is basically normal for your typical early bird.

At least at the Dharma Drum Mountain retreats I've been to, it's true they have restrictions on what to eat and when. For example, garlic is contra indicated, offensive smell and supposedly makes you randy. Eating dinner is contraindicated, offered, but you'll notice the monks not eating it and just having tea or something. It's considered a medicine meal for the sick. Personally, I do feel more restful and ready for sleep at the end of the retreat days without dinner, but I do see how people not used to it could consider it food deprivation.

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#92

Post by kybernetikos »

collyw wrote: post #83
throwaway34241 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to sleep that early, I don't understand what the problem is with that schedule? For example, if you made everything 3 hours later, that would be breakfast at 9AM, dinner at 7PM and lights out at midnight. That's still 9 hours of sleep... it's probably a bit early compared to the average coder schedule, but waking up around sunrise doesn't seem all that strange (compared to waking up hours after the su…

I have tried arguing this with self proclaimed night owls including my girlfriend. The time of day is nothing more than a number, so saying that "I can't sleep before 11pm" is pretty nonsense. We swap the clocks back / forward by an hour twice every year and it only takes a couple of days to get used to the change. Spain is an hour ahead of the UK, despite being on the same longitude. If you ever fly between time zon…

There are various studies that suggest a genetic component to energy levels at different times in the circadian cycle. A quick search will find some for you. Just because your cycle can be adjusted doesn't mean that some people don't have longer ones or experience high energy levels at later times.

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#93

Post by RichardCA »

gotocake wrote: post #22
maxander wrote: post #12

Meditation retreats sound interesting, but they've always struck me as tending to have a fairly grueling, bizarre schedule- awake and breakfast at ~6AM, dinner at 4pm, lights out at 9PM (and no meal until breakfast the next day.) It strikes me as the worst setup for long meditation sessions- getting everyone sleepy and hungry and out of sorts. That it would send susceptible people off the deep end doesn't sound surpr…

Lack of sleep, sudden change of routine, total immersion in a new mindset, and withholding food is the classic playbook of cult indoctrination. The point is to weaken existing barriers that would otherwise keep people aloof, disengaged, and instead create a total experience. I’m not claiming that a meditation retreat is a cult indoctrination, at least not most of the time. It does however share some commonalities wit…

The key characteristic of a cult is that the cult leader plays an active role in the indoctrination process. This seems to not be the case with the Goenka brand of Vipassana.

TFA references Megan Vogt, not sure if anyone has posted this yet:

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/york_county_suicide_me...

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#94

Post by discreteevent »

nchos wrote: post #72
jdietrich wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author doesn't mention where he went on retreat, but there's more than enough information in his post to figure it out. I won't name them, but I will say that they aren't a monastery and aren't part of an established Buddhist tradition. The movement that the retreat centre is affiliated to was established in the late 1960s by a businessman with no monastic training. Bluntly, there are a lot of organisations out t…

The author doesn't mention where he went on retreat Respectfully, did you read the article? Because both Vipassana and Mr. Goenka are mentioned. In my experience nothing in Vipassana is particularly bizarre. Eating two meals a day with a snack in the evening isn't an ascetic practice, and neither is the sleep schedule which allows for 6.5 hours a night. The sleep I will admit is an adjustment, but it's a challenge, n…

"It's a great deal of meditation, but that's the idea."

I think main point the parent explained (very well) is that a great deal of meditation is a bad idea for the untrained.

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#95

Post by RichardCA »

jdietrich wrote: post #54
maxander wrote: post #12

Meditation retreats sound interesting, but they've always struck me as tending to have a fairly grueling, bizarre schedule- awake and breakfast at ~6AM, dinner at 4pm, lights out at 9PM (and no meal until breakfast the next day.) It strikes me as the worst setup for long meditation sessions- getting everyone sleepy and hungry and out of sorts. That it would send susceptible people off the deep end doesn't sound surpr…

The author doesn't mention where he went on retreat, but there's more than enough information in his post to figure it out. I won't name them, but I will say that they aren't a monastery and aren't part of an established Buddhist tradition. The movement that the retreat centre is affiliated to was established in the late 1960s by a businessman with no monastic training. Bluntly, there are a lot of organisations out t…

No need to be coy. I did the Goenka 10-day in 2013. Even though they seem to disavow the idea that they are a Buddhist sect, once you get used to the discourses and the Pali chanting, and then do your own homework, it becomes pretty clear that it's a loosely-coupled sect of Theravada Buddhism. I don't think this viewpoint is controversial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba_Khin

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#96

Post by tanseydavid »

iliketosleep wrote: post #71
HNLurker2 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what you mean by dark night is the last chapter in The Mind Illuminated. Being red pilled with the literature doesn't make you immune to the "dark night"

I was referring to the "dark night" Dr Daniel Ingram expounds upon in his writings (which I'm familiar with) and is referred to in the article. I haven't read The Mind Illuminated, so I'm not sure if it's the same thing. Regardless, there is no such thing as "red pilled" when it comes to all of this, and nobody who engages in intense meditation is immune. I went through it once and that was quite enough.

The term and concept go back to the Middle Ages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#97

Post by iliketosleep »

kup0 wrote: post #81
arpa wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

beautifully put! If I might add - the first noble truth is that life is suffering, to which, the noble eightfold path only offers a temporary remedy. It has been a long time since I've been on the path, but I still remember the beauty of the inner silence; however I also remember how the silence becomes the void that eats away at the world we dream, leaving only the cold and naked meaningless of the world - i still r…

IMHO, I think the translation "life is suffering" is inaccurate enough to be particularly negative/nihilistic. Though, maybe "pain is an inescapable part of life" is too much the other way, not sure. "Life is dukkha" seems to mean so much more than that. Especially as the Buddha expounds on multiple types of Dukkha, only one of which is suffering/pain. The other two, being impermanence and conditioned states.

Very true. Translating dukkha as just "suffering" is a vast oversimplification.

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#98

Post by mcshicks »

beambot wrote: post #58
mcshicks wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been doing 2 to 3 week long meditation retreats every year for the past 10 years or so. I don't disagree with anything your are saying in particular. However I do think there is value in them (otherwise I wouldn't keep going), but I also think people should ease their way in. Do a 1 day retreat first, then do some three days, and then do a week. Have a regular meditation practice, preferably with the same people…

What sort of incidents?

Some guy took off his clothes and started wandering around the outside grounds

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#99

Post by zenlot »

collyw wrote: post #83
throwaway34241 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to sleep that early, I don't understand what the problem is with that schedule? For example, if you made everything 3 hours later, that would be breakfast at 9AM, dinner at 7PM and lights out at midnight. That's still 9 hours of sleep... it's probably a bit early compared to the average coder schedule, but waking up around sunrise doesn't seem all that strange (compared to waking up hours after the su…

I have tried arguing this with self proclaimed night owls including my girlfriend. The time of day is nothing more than a number, so saying that "I can't sleep before 11pm" is pretty nonsense. We swap the clocks back / forward by an hour twice every year and it only takes a couple of days to get used to the change. Spain is an hour ahead of the UK, despite being on the same longitude. If you ever fly between time zon…

Good resource would be: Matthew Walker Why We Sleep: The New Science of Sleep and Dreams
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