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The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

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Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#91

Post by LiterallyDoge »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #74
krageon wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They made the current model the way it is on purpose, so that it is difficult to turn off and the average user won't do it. Following that logic it's not exactly hard to see why they'll never respect that header unless their arm is twisted. This is the sort of ethics that should be expected from companies. To my mind, the DNT header is nice to have but almost breathtakingly naive. The real solutions lie in the direct…

> To my mind, the DNT header is nice to have but almost breathtakingly naive. Yes, and to me it's also evidence of lack of morals in the companies, and of a need to regulate it. The way I see it, GDPR should consider DNT as explicit refusal to grant consent to tracking, with all legal consequences if ignored.

That's a very interesting perspective and it makes sense, especially if Do Not Track is optional and off by default.

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#93

Post by polskibus »

jacobush wrote: post #85
polskibus wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, that would mean complying with GDPR? You are obliged to remove data physically from databases upon request (including backups if possible, if not possible then keep deletion patches to be ran after backup restore!). Since you cannot continue processing data after GDPR deletion request, that could mean that a model (which is processing the data) should unlearn any knowledge of you.

This is what any reasonable person will think. I fully expect FB to argue that "oh these are just some computer bits you see. There is no way to from this model deduce what inputs made it into this model. It's like a hash function. And since we have removed the inputs, we have complied." That they are in essence keeping "the ghost" of a person is another thing.

I don't even know if deleting your account through standard Facebook means is the same as requesting the deletion by GDPR request.

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#94

Post by threatofrain »

vatueil wrote: post #51
Lio wrote: post #44

I think that a lot of Google and Facebook’s creepyness would go away if they’d just voluntarily respect the Do Not Track header. There’s no techical reason why don’t, just business ethics. That header is someone explicitly telling Google “I don’t want you to do this” _before_ collection happens and Google’s response is “we don’t give a shit what you want” and doing it anyway. The current model where you have to regis…

Microsoft turning DNT on for all Windows users automatically pretty much killed the movement's momentum. While privacy as the default has strong arguments going for it, as a practical matter since DNT was supposed to be an intentional signal Microsoft's mass-flagging effectively drowned the signal in noise. And those who didn't know better lauded them for it, too.

But doesn't this signal also make you easier to track?

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#95

Post by Lio »

UncleMeat wrote: post #89
calgoo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And to follow up on this, if some AI model is trained using the data, is that AI model then trashed and redone without the dataset?

GDPR doesn't demand that you destroy all features created with the help of user data.

Maybe it doesn't I'm certainly no expert on GDPR but it does highlight how Google/Facebook are crossing the creepy line.

These companies are treating privacy legislation as they treat tax legislation. That is, they're using legal loop holes to be as legally creepy as they can without respecting the spirit of the law.

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#96

Post by fipple »

Lio wrote: post #79
fipple wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t understand the question. Say you have 10 million records across 50 systems. You clear data, each of those systems does a delete by userid, but then the collection starts again as of your next click.

What I'm getting at is Calgoo's point. If Google/Facebook use my data before they get the request to delete it will they also delete the output of that processing?

No, but Google will retrain their personalization features post-delete so you’ll start from a clean slate but ML models for spam filtering etc. will not be changed until a re-train.

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#97

Post by polskibus »

UncleMeat wrote: post #90
polskibus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would this unlearn the Google's ML models from my data?

Would you ask somebody who had you in an A/B test to destroy the feature?

Surely A/B does not require PII? In FB case-if the model's purpose is to identify individuals then yes, it should be undone as requested.

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#98

Post by cpeterso »

vatueil wrote: post #51
Lio wrote: post #44

I think that a lot of Google and Facebook’s creepyness would go away if they’d just voluntarily respect the Do Not Track header. There’s no techical reason why don’t, just business ethics. That header is someone explicitly telling Google “I don’t want you to do this” _before_ collection happens and Google’s response is “we don’t give a shit what you want” and doing it anyway. The current model where you have to regis…

Microsoft turning DNT on for all Windows users automatically pretty much killed the movement's momentum. While privacy as the default has strong arguments going for it, as a practical matter since DNT was supposed to be an intentional signal Microsoft's mass-flagging effectively drowned the signal in noise. And those who didn't know better lauded them for it, too.

Apache landed a patch to ignore the DNT header from the versions of IE that enabled DNT by default. Thus websites would only see DNT headers when for users that they know manually opted into DNT.

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#100

Post by drak0n1c »

arun_suresh wrote: post #17

I watched half of it... but began noticing the frequent references to how only 'conservative' views are suppressed. And then there were a bunch of Tucker Carlson snippets and then realized something wasn't (no pun intended) 'right'. Looks like M.A. Taylor, from his IMDB page is hyper conservative anti-obama/clinton political hack. Sure, some of what the film talks about - how google and facebook - can nudge peoples o…

> But it is creepy that he has snippets in there projecting them as liberal anti-conservatives hipster organizations.

I don't think that means the characterization is false, though. My friends working at Facebook and Google are very liberal and internal polling and their message boards have shown that to be overwhelmingly true for the wider organization as well.

> Come on - 2016 would've turned out very different if facebook was really suppressing conservative content at the scale this film is talking about.

It's possible that it happened and simply backfired. Conservatives aren't blind and turned out in greater numbers due to personal anecdata that they and the current events they were interested in were being squelched and misrepresented across social media. I personally recall Facebook's news sidebar feature had a clear pro-Democrat bias in the editorialized titles they wrote and presented above stories throughout 2016 (before they took it down).

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