The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation • Hacker News Board

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#71

Post by dredmorbius » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 11:01 AM UTC

The Creepy Line is written and directed by the filmmakers behind conservative documentary Clinton Cash. It takes its title from Google executive Eric Schmidt, who said in 2010 that Google’s job was to “get right up to the creepy line and not cross it.” Schmidt has gotten no end of flack for that quote, and it’s easy to point out that Google is, in fact, often very creepy. But The Creepy Line makes a more specific, partisan argument. It claims that Google (and Facebook, which the film refers to almost interchangeably) deliberately manipulates its service to suppress conservative users and ideas, and — more ambitiously — that Google tweaked its search algorithm to swing the 2016 election in Hillary Clinton’s favor.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/19/17878332/creepy-line-anti...

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#72

Post by polskibus » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 12:00 PM UTC

jacobush wrote: post #70

polskibus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does deletion of your data unlearn the models from the data?

Of course not. What would that even mean? Their objective is to model you. To maximize profit, they should retrain the model with the input "user deleted this and that". As added data points.

Perhaps, that would mean complying with GDPR? You are obliged to remove data physically from databases upon request (including backups if possible, if not possible then keep deletion patches to be ran after backup restore!). Since you cannot continue processing data after GDPR deletion request, that could mean that a model (which is processing the data) should unlearn any knowledge of you.

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#73

Post by mcnesium » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 12:20 PM UTC

Lio wrote: post #44

I think that a lot of Google and Facebook’s creepyness would go away if they’d just voluntarily respect the Do Not Track header. There’s no techical reason why don’t, just business ethics. That header is someone explicitly telling Google “I don’t want you to do this” _before_ collection happens and Google’s response is “we don’t give a shit what you want” and doing it anyway. The current model where you have to regis…

Google and Facebook are the first proof for why the Do Not Track header is bullshit. Privacy should be the default, and if I for some reason want to be sniffed all around the web, I can happily opt-in.

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#74

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 12:29 PM UTC

krageon wrote: post #63

Lio wrote: post #44

I think that a lot of Google and Facebook’s creepyness would go away if they’d just voluntarily respect the Do Not Track header. There’s no techical reason why don’t, just business ethics. That header is someone explicitly telling Google “I don’t want you to do this” _before_ collection happens and Google’s response is “we don’t give a shit what you want” and doing it anyway. The current model where you have to regis…

They made the current model the way it is on purpose, so that it is difficult to turn off and the average user won't do it. Following that logic it's not exactly hard to see why they'll never respect that header unless their arm is twisted. This is the sort of ethics that should be expected from companies. To my mind, the DNT header is nice to have but almost breathtakingly naive. The real solutions lie in the direct…

> To my mind, the DNT header is nice to have but almost breathtakingly naive.

Yes, and to me it's also evidence of lack of morals in the companies, and of a need to regulate it. The way I see it, GDPR should consider DNT as explicit refusal to grant consent to tracking, with all legal consequences if ignored.

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#75

Post by hjek » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 12:38 PM UTC

jonas21 wrote: post #24

Did anyone who upvoted this actually watch the documentary or the trailer, or do HNers just automatically upvote anything that's anti-Facebook and Google these days? The documentary is mostly right-wing conspiracy theories about how liberal tech companies are trying to undermine democracy and favor Hillary Clinton. Watch the trailer if you don't believe me. Or read this: https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/19/17878332/cr…

Came here to say the same thing.

It's also rather hypocritical to display the trailer as a Youtube embed rather than a tag. Google Analytics on the website as well? Of course there is!

I did upvote this at first but quickly unvoted after seeing JP in there. Yes, surveillance is creepy, but I'm not suddenly going to cheer for a climate change denying misogynistic speciesist because he's expressing a common-sense truth. Context does matter to some extend.

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#76

Post by smhost » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 1:01 PM UTC

arun_suresh wrote: post #17

I watched half of it... but began noticing the frequent references to how only 'conservative' views are suppressed. And then there were a bunch of Tucker Carlson snippets and then realized something wasn't (no pun intended) 'right'. Looks like M.A. Taylor, from his IMDB page is hyper conservative anti-obama/clinton political hack. Sure, some of what the film talks about - how google and facebook - can nudge peoples o…

> 2016 would've turned out very different if facebook was really suppressing conservative content at the scale this film is talking about.

I don't know why you feel the need to equivocate. Cambridge Analytica had direct ties to the Trump campaign, and this film is malicious propaganda to gaslight the public.

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#77

Post by Lio » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 1:05 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #68

Lio wrote: post #44

I think that a lot of Google and Facebook’s creepyness would go away if they’d just voluntarily respect the Do Not Track header. There’s no techical reason why don’t, just business ethics. That header is someone explicitly telling Google “I don’t want you to do this” _before_ collection happens and Google’s response is “we don’t give a shit what you want” and doing it anyway. The current model where you have to regis…

just voluntarily respect the Do Not Track header. It’s not even that, it’s browser fingerprinting and everything. There is no honest reason to track logged-out users, full stop. And they knew that too, at some meeting someone said “we need to track people who don’t want or expect us to track them” and everyone nodded and the geeks all said, “hey I’ve got an idea”

Yes, I totally agree. Do Not Track is just another signal much like being logged out.

These are deliberate violations and the people working for Google/Facebook must know that.

They are deliberately working around attempts to stop them tracking people. They must know that.

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#78

Post by Lio » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 1:11 PM UTC

vatueil wrote: post #64

Lio wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if Microsoft turned DNT on by default Google/Facebook should still respect it. They could ask users to turn it off in the same way they bug people to install their software. Alternatively they could work on business models that don’t rely on collecting massive amounts of personal data about people who don’t want them to do that. E.g. Basic Attention Tokens and others.

Sure, you could wish for that, but if we could have everything you wished for we probably wouldn't need DNT in the first place. Since DNT was specifically raised, bringing up how Microsoft's hug of death killed it seemed pertinent.

That still sounds like we have a problem with Google/Facebook and not with Microsoft turning it on by default.

The default behaviour for Google/Facebook should be not to track people that aren't logged in to their services.

That should go double for people who are not just neutral but explicitly telling them "really, don't track me" in a header.

There is no justification of "we're just improving services" for people who are telling you "I don't want to use your service and I don't want to help you improve your services."

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#79

Post by Lio » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 1:16 PM UTC

fipple wrote: post #60

Lio wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they clear it without using it and if they do use it to they clear the results of that use?

Don’t understand the question. Say you have 10 million records across 50 systems. You clear data, each of those systems does a delete by userid, but then the collection starts again as of your next click.

What I'm getting at is Calgoo's point. If Google/Facebook use my data before they get the request to delete it will they also delete the output of that processing?

Re: The Creepy Line: a documentary about Google, Facebook and user manipulation

#80

Post by giancarlostoro » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 1:27 PM UTC

Lio wrote: post #44

I think that a lot of Google and Facebook’s creepyness would go away if they’d just voluntarily respect the Do Not Track header. There’s no techical reason why don’t, just business ethics. That header is someone explicitly telling Google “I don’t want you to do this” _before_ collection happens and Google’s response is “we don’t give a shit what you want” and doing it anyway. The current model where you have to regis…

I wish the GDPR had enforced this. It would be nice, though sad that it would have to be a law. If congress and the EU would push for it, things might get interesting. Ads based on content are what I prefer anyway.