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New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

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Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#91

Post by tanilama »

frockington wrote: post #81
matt_the_bass wrote: post #31

I think this is a great example of hampering technical manufacturing growth in the US.

I think the win-win outcome is that China is forced to innovate more and the US is force to manufacture more. Both countries have been too reliant on each other for too long now

It will be a good outcome that China opens its market more to the world, which is actually to the interests of the Chinese consumers, they already want foreign goods and now it is more affordable and would probably force their domestic companies to up their own game finally to face the competition.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#92

Post by zrobotics »

IanDrake wrote: post #82
zrobotics wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This started well before the Chinese were into manufacturing, clear back in the 70s with cheap Japanese imports. Then it moved to Taiwan, and now China. Honestly, wages in the US have been too high to avoid this for quite a long time, and the only way I see consumer manufacturing moving back is through increased automation. Unfortunately, I see no realistic way to bring back the kind of manufacturing jobs in the same…

I don’t disagree with most of your analysis. Especially your point about automation. Now imagine a world where the US can make things again at a cost competitive rate due to automation. Ok, now look at how those goods would be taxed overseas... We still would have an export problem due to other country’s protectionist tariffs. The point of the trade negotiations is to get better terms for US exports. This is critical…

The trouble, as bunnie points out in the article, is that the tariffs apply to things like components, not finished assemblies. So why would I locate a SMD assembly line in the US if my raw materials are higher, when I can also assemble the product overseas and avoid these tariffs?

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#93

Post by teh_klev »

zaroth wrote: post #63
fentonc wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We levy plenty of tariffs on goods from other countries to protect local industries - on average ours are very slightly lower than places like the EU, but it’s like ~2.5% vs 3%, not 0% vs 30%, which seems to be your claim.

“America’s taxes on imports are much lower than those of almost every other country.” — The NY Times China’s weight average tariffs are 3x higher than the United States, approximately 10% vs 3.5%.

Depends on how you define "much lower", especially with a major trading partner such as the EU:

U.S. exports to the European Union enjoy an average tariff of just three percent.

Source: https://www.export.gov/article?id=European-union-Import-Tari...

In 2016, according to the World Bank, the average applied U.S. tariff across all products was 1.61%; that was about the same as the average rate of 1.6% for the 28-nation EU

Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/03/22/u-s-tariffs-...

US to EU average import tariffs differ only by ~1.4%, sure the US tariff is (slightly) lower but it's hardly a huge imbalance.

Edit: just picking up from morsch's comment, these are international trade tariff figures which is what Trump is imposing. What countries do internally when it comes to sales or Value Added Tax is a whole different thing; these types of taxes apply to all goods and services sold within that country, regardless of origin (i.e. regardless of whether a pencil is manufactured in the UK or the US, it will still attract a domestic sales/VAT of 17.5% if sold in the UK).

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#94

Post by innocentoldguy »

AlexandrB wrote: post #65
innocentoldguy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand how you arrived at that conclusion. Could you explain? I think my point is simple and clear. If you choose to help the poor at your own expense, it is charity. If you want to help the poor at my expense, it is extortion. People don't mind the first. They mind very much the second. That's it. That is the entirety of my point. There are no hidden layers to peel back. No need to downvote me for being…

Yeah, choosing to help the poor - like Tesla. I see you made that choice, but why should I as a taxpayer have to foot the bill as well? Edit: Oh sorry, I realized you might be referring to helping the poor banks during the 2008 financial crisis. Well, I don't want to pay for that either.

sigh. You seem to want to read into what I said more than is there, and to have an argument that is entirely unrelated to anything I've ever said throughout the entirety of my 50+ years on this planet. That being the case, you'll have to find another opponent of your political angst to argue with. I simply have no interest.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#95

Post by justMoritz »

dalore wrote: post #27
IanDrake wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure you understand how nations work. We elect people to work in our best interests. We are in competition with other countries. Our blue collar jobs have stagnated since we’ve been off-shoring manufacturing to China. The poor in the US were getting poorer. Not everyone has the ability to transition into a thinking job and we need a balanced economy for these people.

It's the whole competition mentality. If anything the US is in a competition against themselves. Everything seems to fight against helping your fellow man and all about gettings yours before anyone get's theirs. Healthcare for you fellow citizens? So controversial. Billions of dollars for war and killing others? Well that's ok then, let's spend that money no questions asked. You guys are at competition so much with e…

Don't forget the fact that guns are okay, and ongoing civil war is a “right”.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#96

Post by Larrikin »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #56
gebruikersnaam wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bush put tariffs on steel in 2002 : 200000 jobs lost [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_United_States_steel_tarif...

How many jobs were lost from tariffs on labor, i.e. income and payroll taxes, which make employing people in the USA way more expensive?

How many?

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#97

Post by jpindar »

dalbasal wrote: post #19

Out of all possible trade barriers, I think tariffs are generally the better option. The alternative is subsidies, quotas or "unofficial" barriers like product safety rules or other burry-you-in-bureaucracy setups. Tariffs bring in taxes (as opposed to costing the public) They're easier to understand. This one makes Chinese microwaves x% more expensive. It's clearer who is paying for it (consumers) and who benefits,…

>Tariffs bring in taxes (as opposed to costing the public)

Tariffs are imposing taxes on the very businesses we're supposedly trying to save!

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#98

Post by mchannon »

onion2k wrote: post #68
mchannon wrote: post #4

If the cost of food doubles, your cost of a meal out doesn't double, but merely increases by a lesser amount. This is a 25% bump, a portion of which will be borne by the manufacturer, seller, shipper, and money handler. I don't see how it's even close to possible for customs to intercept 50% of the mail coming in from China to ensure they've paid the tariffs. So, things will range from unenforceable and unenforced, t…

If the cost of food doubles, your cost of a meal out doesn't double, but merely increases by a lesser amount. If the manufacturer can't make a profit at the tariff-burdened price, they just don't make the food in the first place. So you go hungry.

Or they raise the price. Then they just don't sell as much, leaving you to either consume less food or buy cheaper substitutes (retaliatory pork tariffs should mean cheaper bacon back home, shouldn't they?).

Asked no serious manufacturer ever: "Gee, should I use this minor setback as an excuse to shut my entire operation down or slightly adjust my prices?"

New suppliers may spring up, or existing suppliers may change locales. The economic system is like a stream and tariffs are like a boulder. It'll flow around, under, and over. Sucks if you are splat upon the boulder, though.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#99

Post by frockington »

endorphone wrote: post #88
frockington wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like they are forced to play the US agenda. Are they going to end their military protection agreements with the most powerful military in the world? Are they going to close access to the world largest market? If they want to have a nation in 20 years they likely will not stop playing the US agenda

"If they want to have a nation in 20 years they likely will not stop playing the US agenda" What a strange claim. How are they going to lose their nation? The EU has a GDP 20x Russia's (not to mention having nuclear armed nations). Canada alone has a GDP 2x Russia. Any of these countries can fend off any imaginary assault, most of which are instigated by the US. The largest market...wait, do you think the US is going…

A shut off would be disastrous for everyone involved so I doubt it would ever happen. Worst case scenario, the US would pick apart the EU.

"Hey Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal, free trade if you exit the EU. We'll toss in protection from foreign invasion"

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#100

Post by Maarten88 »

xienze wrote: post #46
tanilama wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can other countries trusy Trump administration at all at this point? It seems obvious, to deal with Trump, you have to prepare for the worst, since he is not predictable and tends to whatever he wants and whenever he desires.

Maybe get back to the original question and the reason Trump is interested in starting a trade war? Why is it OK for other countries to levy tariffs against us but not the other way around?

> Why is it OK for other countries to levy tariffs against us but not the other way around?

I see this comment a lot, I think Trump also said this, but I wonder what specific tariffs is this talking about?

My country (Netherlands) has a negative trade balance with the US, we buy a lot of software, entertainment and (heavily subsidized) Tesla's from the US. Even the "German" car I drive (a BMW) is manufactured in the US because of US trade demands. Also many international trade laws are heavily influenced by US policies that mostly benefit the US (i.e. IP, drugs).

It seems pretty clear that Trump started this trade war because he didn't like the existing equilibrium. And because he is who he is, other countries must be to blame.

I think US people will have to get used to the idea that maybe the US economy is not competitive and US people have been living above their means for a long time now. There are a lot of things the US can do to improve their competitiveness: education, health, corruption, equality, finance all have real impact on the economic competitiveness of a country and you can't make a mess out of it without it having real consequences.

US companies also will have to learn to deal with the fact that the US no longer is the single biggest economy in the world, and the US can't set the rules unilaterally. Trump is helping a lot weeding out the diplomatic goodwill that the US historically enjoyed.

US business is spoiled with their huge home market and seems to find it very hard to adapt to smaller country's rules. In order to export successfully in a more level world, you have to play it by their rules. If my country want to export flowers to Japan, and they allow them only when sterile and without a grain of sand, and they only like bright colors, then we will make them so.

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