Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

bunniestudios.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 357 posts

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#41

Post by xienze »

justin66 wrote: post #37
xienze wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no need to be going into a trade war against not only traditionally our rivals but also our allies now too. And yet other countries never seem to entertain the idea of both sides getting rid of all their tariffs, which is something Trump suggested at that G7 summit. Everyone goes nuts when the US suggests implementing tariffs against countries that already have tariffs against us. You gotta admit, the mess…

Hopefully you realize that eliminating all tariffs was never a US negotiating position, it was a random stupid thing the president said.

He wants reciprocity — you tariff me, I tariff you. It’s not just for grins.

Get back to the original point: why is it acceptable for other countries to levy tariffs against the US but not the other way around?

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#42

Post by zrobotics »

1over137 wrote: post #24
IanDrake wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure you understand how nations work. We elect people to work in our best interests. We are in competition with other countries. Our blue collar jobs have stagnated since we’ve been off-shoring manufacturing to China. The poor in the US were getting poorer. Not everyone has the ability to transition into a thinking job and we need a balanced economy for these people.

Not to disagree (or agree), but it seems to me most USians were quite happy to buy cheap Chinese crap at Walmart & Amazon in the last decades, thus off-shoring their own jobs. The chickens are home to roost.

This started well before the Chinese were into manufacturing, clear back in the 70s with cheap Japanese imports. Then it moved to Taiwan, and now China. Honestly, wages in the US have been too high to avoid this for quite a long time, and the only way I see consumer manufacturing moving back is through increased automation.

Unfortunately, I see no realistic way to bring back the kind of manufacturing jobs in the same numbers we had in the 50s-70s. And nobody wants to work them anyway, a family friend runs a small company making material handling equipment, and he is always short of assemblers. At one point he was starting assemblers higher than welders, and still struggled. We're fighting too many years of telling kids to avoid the trades and go to college. I can't find the link, but NPR recently ran a story about innovative schools that are starting maker spaces. All schools used to have that, it was called shop class.

These moves from the trump administration seem to me like closing the gate after the horses have already bolted, and stand to harm what manufacturing jobs we have left as well as pissing off our allies.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#43

Post by sveme »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #28
digitalzombie wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Wavepool, Maytag, etc.. Americans washer and dryer cloth machines pushed for Tariff from the Obama administration to fight against Samsung and other. The tariff target machine coming out from specific countries so Samsung and other moved to other South Eastern companies such as Vietnam. So the American companies pushed for tariff for all incoming washing machine that aren't American. Trump administration…

"I disagree." In other words you think that subsidies and senseless bureaucratic obstacles are better than tariffs? The OP is not saying that tariffs are a good thing, he's saying that tariffs are so obviously bad & stupid that they're easier to get rid of and negotiate away. Subsidies and senseless bureaucratic obstacles are just as damaging as tariffs but they are harder to get rid of.

Regulatory requirements on product safety and environmental standards are not senseless bureaucratic obstacles.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#44

Post by endorphone »

IanDrake wrote: post #20
tinus_hn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If China won’t deal, there are other countries that will. All these countries he hasn’t alienated yet, which is a list that mostly consists of North Korea.

That’s just hyperbole. The US is throwing its weight around for the first time since Reagan. Last time it worked out pretty well. Things have changed a lot since then with the rise of China and the EU. With the new big players in the world it’s time the US put on its big boy pants and renegotiated its place.

The entire worldwide trade order was created by the US throwing its weight around. Those cheap Chinese goods, Korea, Japan, the WTO, the poles of axis. Drug prices, intellectual property protections. All courtesy of the US. That order that made the US the richest country in the world, home to the most powerful companies in the world.

So the whole Trump narrative that you're regurgitating is a bit odd.

And it is already backfiring spectacularly, and is poised to get much worse. Those "big boy pants" turned out to have a smattering of urine and feces in them. Trump's ignorant, hap-hazard way of "negotiating" has alienated friends and foes, and made the world re-evaluate why it is playing the US agenda.

Another post noted that the whole thing has been unfair to low income earners in the US, as if the outrageous disparity in the US is really the result of those damn foreigners. Only that disparity has only gotten worse under Trump's ignorant policies.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#45

Post by gebruikersnaam »

IanDrake wrote: post #20
tinus_hn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If China won’t deal, there are other countries that will. All these countries he hasn’t alienated yet, which is a list that mostly consists of North Korea.

That’s just hyperbole. The US is throwing its weight around for the first time since Reagan. Last time it worked out pretty well. Things have changed a lot since then with the rise of China and the EU. With the new big players in the world it’s time the US put on its big boy pants and renegotiated its place.

Bush put tariffs on steel in 2002 : 200000 jobs lost [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_United_States_steel_tarif...

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#46

Post by xienze »

tanilama wrote: post #40
xienze wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no need to be going into a trade war against not only traditionally our rivals but also our allies now too. And yet other countries never seem to entertain the idea of both sides getting rid of all their tariffs, which is something Trump suggested at that G7 summit. Everyone goes nuts when the US suggests implementing tariffs against countries that already have tariffs against us. You gotta admit, the mess…

Can other countries trusy Trump administration at all at this point? It seems obvious, to deal with Trump, you have to prepare for the worst, since he is not predictable and tends to whatever he wants and whenever he desires.

Maybe get back to the original question and the reason Trump is interested in starting a trade war? Why is it OK for other countries to levy tariffs against us but not the other way around?

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#47

Post by qaq »

baybal2 wrote: post #29
hugh4life wrote: post #12

I'm neutral on the tariffs, I am(or was) actually excited about China getting into the memory market to help keep the other memory makers honest... but it's important to have an alternative source of those components in case there would be trouble between the US and China. There needs to be a way to nudge businesses to have a source of components out of China.

> it's important to have an alternative source of those components in case there would be trouble between the US and China. Except there is none...

Right and there is obviously 0 chance of trouble in the future

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#48

Post by sveme »

xienze wrote: post #41
justin66 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully you realize that eliminating all tariffs was never a US negotiating position, it was a random stupid thing the president said.

He wants reciprocity — you tariff me, I tariff you. It’s not just for grins. Get back to the original point: why is it acceptable for other countries to levy tariffs against the US but not the other way around?

But both sides already levy tariffs on the other side, just with different emphasises. Look at US truck tariffs as an example.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#49

Post by pjc50 »

xienze wrote: post #33
digitalzombie wrote: post #25

I really hate the new tariff. There is no need to be going into a trade war against not only traditionally our rivals but also our allies now too. The economy is recovering and I believe it may now be heading toward a recession. Here's the quick data on job created in raw number without the quality of the job to show that it is recovering since the 2008 recession: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2…

> There is no need to be going into a trade war against not only traditionally our rivals but also our allies now too. And yet other countries never seem to entertain the idea of both sides getting rid of all their tariffs, which is something Trump suggested at that G7 summit. Everyone goes nuts when the US suggests implementing tariffs against countries that already have tariffs against us. You gotta admit, the mess…

The US has always argued for other countries to reduce their tariffs. Here's an article from 2002, for example: https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/obstacles-zero-tariffs

"The fact is that there is a strong feeling in the developing world that trade rules do not apply equally. Indeed, Washington lost the moral high ground earlier this year when it slapped steep tariffs on steel imports and locked in subsidies for its farmers. As well, the US has in place a sophisticated regime of non-tariff barriers such as anti-dumping laws that exporters from developing countries have found difficult, if not downright impossible, to circumvent. "

(The "non-tariff barriers" are important - all kinds of environmental and safety standards could be considered as these, and they can be far more difficult to deal with than simply paying an import duty. This is another thing a lot of Brexiteers haven't realised)

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#50

Post by maxerickson »

notheguyouthink wrote: post #35
maxerickson wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People buying products subject to tariffs (or products made with materials subject to tariffs) pay the majority of the tariff. So they do cost the public. In a functioning market, local suppliers are likely to raise prices in response to the tariffs, as they face less competition.

I don't know anything about economy, so this is a question not.. a counter, but: > In a functioning market, local suppliers are likely to raise prices in response to the tariffs, as they face less competition. Is that entirely bad? The whole "US Made!" tagline of old stopped becoming possible because we couldn't charge wages low enough to compete with foreign dollars or foreign slave wages. Raising the cost of X item…

They will raise prices regardless of their cost structure.

The millions of unfilled manufacturing "jobs" are ~$14 an hour jobs that have significant upfront training requirements, so I doubt that onshoring lower skilled manufacturing is going to lead to much of a renaissance.

Post reply on HN