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Simplicity Is Highly Overrated

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Re: Simplicity Is Highly Overrated

#91

Post by nostromo »

Charuru wrote: post #81
jrwoodruff wrote: post #38

I just disagree with this. I think complexity is laziness on the part of the designer, the marketing team and the management team that probably demands their products appear complex. For instance, the washing machine that needs two buttons but has 20. Two buttons on a washing machine, if designed well, is a great marketing opportunity. BUT you would have to design it with a way to SHOW the user all of the things that…

I love Apple as much as any other programmer, but we have to remember that they lost the Mac vs PC wars. There is a still popular perception that Macs are for frivolous hippies and PCs is what real people use to do real work. Obviously it's different for programmers and many other people, but we're talking about mainstream marketing here. They did great in the mobile segment because of extremely weak competition and…

The question though is if the PC won out because of its complexity and feature set, or for other reasons (openness, business practices, etc.)

Re: Simplicity Is Highly Overrated

#92

Post by anamax »

lepton wrote: post #82
drv wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife's Audi A4 had an analog clock, although her new car has digital. I STRONGLY prefer digital. Setting the analog one was always a pain, and it didn't auto adjust for daylight savings time, like the new digital one does. I prefer digital clocks as well, but a car adjusting for DST? That seems like a recipe for more complexity, not less. What happens when the DST rules change? Then, instead of manually adjusting…

I'm sure this can be patched after manufacture--the logic is probably on a flash prom. I would hope the dealership takes care of this during a regular service.

> I would hope the dealership takes care of this during a regular service.

Except that I don't take my car to a dealer.... (I do all minor maintenance and used to do major as well.)

Re: Simplicity Is Highly Overrated

#93

Post by myoung8 »

I think people want products that are simple to use, not just simple. There's a big difference.

There are many products that have a lot of features, but employ concepts like progressive disclosure to make them easier for a wide range of people to use.

Re: Simplicity Is Highly Overrated

#94

Post by akshayubhat »

Terretta wrote: post #36
akshayubhat wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple Mac's aren't a success considering their market share. [Personal opinions are irrelevant] Your argument is fallacious: iPod evolved to address the feature issue: so from a single Classic iPod you now have shuffle, nano and touch. even within each type say iPod nano there has been considerable change. Check out the latest nano and the earlier one, adding touchscreen is same as adding complexity. It's probably yo…

> Apple Mac's aren't a success considering their market share. Some companies prefer market share. Some companies prefer profit. Your definition of success is your personal opinion, which you admit is irrelevant. "While Apple only commands 7 percent of overall revenues in the PC market, its products account for 35 percent of the operating profits. None of the other manufacturers—which includes such giants as Dell, He…

     Your definition of success is your personal opinion, which you admit is irrelevant.
If you have read the article,you will realize the criteria used is market share or selling more than your competitors.

The method used in the info graphic mentioned in your article does not differentiates between profits from different divisions within Apple or even HP and Dell.

BI is an Apple fanboi site, so no wonder, it dishes out nonsense, to quote from a recent article "how apple is beginning to destroy Googles core search business "http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-apple-is-beginning-...

     The App Store is replacing the web search engine for mobile device users, at least for some searches. This should scare Google, because search is its core business, and it's being supplanted.
Anyway this thread is now being flooded by Apple iFanboi's, thus no point in making logical arguments.

Re: Simplicity Is Highly Overrated

#95

Post by Dn_Ab »

marknutter wrote: post #72
nadam wrote: post #8

I am a big fan of simplicity, but I recently realized that I was going too far. It is hard to make money by just concentrating on simplicity. Most cash-cows are really complex beasts. See Microsoft Windows, Microsoft Office, Adobe Photoshop, Oracle. If the emphasis of your product is simplicity, chances are you have to compete with free software. Joel had a presentation on this: there are dozens of simple bug tracker…

> Most cash-cows are really complex beasts. See Microsoft Windows, Microsoft Office, Adobe Photoshop, Oracle I would argue that these products are cash cows not because they're complex, but because they were created and marketed at the right time and place. In fact, I would argue that these products became complex after having become cash cows, after which adding features was no longer constrained by time or budget.…

What I wonder is, what is the coverage of features used by Every User? It seems unlikely that every user uses the same 5% of features. Thus the question is, does there exist some set of equivalence classes of feature usage across Office users that is bijective with the set of Office Features? And if not to which degree does it fail to be surjective.

This would be a (silly) measure of how much users drive Office's evolution and how much its just a bunch of people thinking up nonsense to fatten up the feature list.

Re: Simplicity Is Highly Overrated

#96

Post by gthank »

jonhohle wrote: post #53
edw519 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I didn't buy any of these things because I wanted to. Consumers don't have much choice any more. I defy you to go out and find any of these things: - a microwave with a single dial - a cell phone that rings on your land line when you're home - a garage door opener with one button - a dishwasher with a status display - a car with an analog clock - a TV with an on/off switch and a channel dial OP jumped to an unsub…

Garage door opener with one button: http://amzn.to/bQBbFm The Infiniti FX35 has an analog clock. My dishwasher has a green light which indicates that the dishes are clean (though it turns off the first time you open the door, so you better be in the mood to put away dishes). Google voice rings all if your phones, landline or otherwise. I've recently seen microwaves with a spring loaded timer dial, I'm sure you could…

I used to love the "Clean" light until I realized what you pointed out: you'd better want to put away all the dishes right then, which is a problem when you just need a spoon to stir the soup, etc.

Re: Simplicity Is Highly Overrated

#97

Post by TGJ »

tome wrote: post #41

This seems to be another case of people not knowing what their needs are.

More like people knowing what their needs are but only being able to buy products that were built with the engineers needs and not the people.

Re: Simplicity Is Highly Overrated

#98

Post by cdavid »

gacba wrote: post #65
someisaac wrote: post #34

This is an old article.When reading this article i thought the author was right till i saw this article by zedshaw. zedshaw's is very fun to read yet highly informative.! http://www.zedshaw.com/essays/fortune_favors_big_turds.html

My favorite quote in that article: I found an interesting culture full of contradictions and struggling to combine its past with its future and desperately wanted to learn about them. Don saw an SUV and thought he knew some shit. True, considering' Zed's experience (1.5 years as soldier stationed there, spending lots of time integrating and studying the culture.

OTOH, I have lived for more than 6 years in Japan, which also have a culture of having things which look complex, and I think the OP is closer to what I have seen than Zed Shaw on that particular aspect.

I still don't understand why, but Japanese in general love that everything is written on magazines and advertisements, that UI are mind-blowing complex. In general, slides with as much stuff crammed into it are well regarded as well - academic conferences in Japan were scary in that aspect, compared to more internal ones. That's where Zed has a point I think, that is it is not that the culture value complexity as much as valuing a lot of data and information.

If you want to get scared, look into the big EC shops in Japan (e.g. rakuten: http://www.rakuten.co.jp/). I find it almost offensive. The main page also gives a good feeling of what it is like to be inside the subway in a big Japanese city during rush hours - you have advertisements in every location which is not occupied by human flesh.

On a side note, while the snarky comment of Zed Shaw is well, snarky, I would note than Don Norman used to teach 2 months/year in Korea, so he most likely did more than buy a SUV from there.

Re: Simplicity Is Highly Overrated

#99

Post by todayiamme »

akshayubhat wrote: post #94
Terretta wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple Mac's aren't a success considering their market share. Some companies prefer market share. Some companies prefer profit. Your definition of success is your personal opinion, which you admit is irrelevant. "While Apple only commands 7 percent of overall revenues in the PC market, its products account for 35 percent of the operating profits. None of the other manufacturers—which includes such giants as Dell, He…

Your definition of success is your personal opinion, which you admit is irrelevant. If you have read the article,you will realize the criteria used is market share or selling more than your competitors. The method used in the info graphic mentioned in your article does not differentiates between profits from different divisions within Apple or even HP and Dell. BI is an Apple fanboi site, so no wonder, it dishes out…

>>>Anyway this thread is now being flooded by Apple iFanboi's, thus no point in making logical arguments.Look it's of no use whatsoever being a rude asshole over here i.e. HN. You called me an idiot not too long ago (see: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1651363 ), and it appears that you like to insult people willy nilly if they don't conform to the mold of your expectations. That isn't the point of HN.

The sad bit is that you're missing out on the things that make HN beautiful; having your beliefs questioned and learning new things from amazing people. So, open up your mind a bit and you might love what you see. :)

Take care.

Re: Simplicity Is Highly Overrated

#100

Post by jacquesm »

akshayubhat wrote: post #22
symkat wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's probably your Apple bias which seems to be at play here." Yes, because obviously Apple is not considered by their dominating market share of both the MP3[1] and Phone[2] sectors. Apple is also obviously a company that puts tons of knobs, dials and switches on their products to sell them like the toaster in the article and my pointing them out had nothing to do with this. Silly me, and my Apple Fangirlism. [1] h…

Again your fanboiism at play: 1: you disregard my statement about evolution of ipod from a simple to a complex interface. Your link shows 3 different types of iPod, which shows that simplicity didn't work and design had to evolve, to incorporate different needs. 2: In regards to iPhone, Blackberry dominates the market share and guess why? Because they provide a much needed functionality "QWERTY keypad", which proves…

Not everybody that is using the Apple product line as a yardstick by which to measure success is an apple 'fanboi[y]'.

I've used the iphone/ipod example myself elsewhere in this thread but don't own either product.

To immediately label someone and start calling names says more about you than it does about them.

I suggest you scan the tone of the conversation around you and moderate accordingly.

People can't seem to mention the Apple brand on HN without you jumping all over them with accusations.

For instance: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1637376

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