Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

fox59.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 125 posts

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#91

Post by crankylinuxuser »

meri_dian wrote: post #89
arca_vorago wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roads are a public place, subject to constitutional reasonable regulation (by the states, not the federal government) as long as not in violation of our right to travel. So you picked a bad example. Case in point, if I own a vehicle that never leaves my ranch property it doesn't need license plates, insurance, or a drivers license to operate it, and I can go as fast as I damn well please. What I do in the privacy of…

If you think being told that people can't go above a certain speed on the highway to make highways safe enough to drive on makes you a "slave", I would tell you that you're being melodramatic. Civilization is a set of rules, either informal or formal, that we obey. We do this so we can live peaceful and comfortable lives. If you think that's slavery then I feel bad for you.

You seem to not understand the difference between private and public property. I have nary a issue to say "You have to follow the speed limit on public roads", or "No guns can be brought into the courthouse".

But once we step foot into your own property, I can take my guns anywhere I want. As long as I guarantee the bullets don't leave the property, I can shoot what I want. I can take any sort of vehicle I want at whatever speed I want. I'm the king of my castle and the land that surrounds it.

Now, as per drug usage - the bigger public health crisis is people ODing on the streets, urinating/defecating on the streets, needles exposed for people to get jabbed on the streets... Notice a trend here? "On the streets" is in public. Therefore public health crisis.

If I want to do drug, one of, in my own property, there should be no good reason for a government to say "You don't know your body well enough, so we have to tell you no". The result is a bunch of nanny-state politicians who want to dictate your body on your private land.

And, slippery slope? Well, tell that to NYC who can no longer sell larger than 12 oz sodas. Or other jurisdictions that enforce usage, rather than information. Nanny state at its best.

EDIT: So, what gives? Why is this "government knows best" idea so prevalent? The choice of how I treat my own body goes all the way to choosing to commit suicide. Most jurisdictions, even that is "illegal". Harming others directly - whole different story and that should have state "interference".

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#92

Post by IdontRememberIt »

In Switzerland, we have that kind of structure since ages. They are effective, lower criminality, decrease neigboorhood issues, decrease criminality rate, health issues and lower the medical costs supported by the public hospitals. Of course, it does not solve the major issue: how to make them stop taking drugs. See that one in the center of Geneva: http://www.premiereligne.ch/quai9/

https://www.google.com/maps/contrib/102904556286110178389/ph...

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#93

Post by skellera »

IdontRememberIt wrote: post #92

In Switzerland, we have that kind of structure since ages. They are effective, lower criminality, decrease neigboorhood issues, decrease criminality rate, health issues and lower the medical costs supported by the public hospitals. Of course, it does not solve the major issue: how to make them stop taking drugs. See that one in the center of Geneva: http://www.premiereligne.ch/quai9/ https://www.google.com/maps/contr…

Being someone who benefited from needle exchanges, it’s a step in the right direction. It’s a place where users will be exposed to options for getting clean. Ultimately they are the ones who need to come to that decision but having options positively shown to them will help.

Addiction becomes a cycle of negative reinforcements and being able to put a possible break in that will make a difference. Many have mental health issues that they are self medicating for. Hopefully there are counselors there to help those who want it.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#94

Post by wu-ikkyu »

meri_dian wrote: post #59
colechristensen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make everything legal to obtain or manufacture with a license attainable though education and certification – something in between what it takes to get a driver's license and an AA degree. If you want to buy heroin you have to understand it's addictive qualities, how human biology is affected, and how to recognize the negative consequences. Attach liability to the licensee for anything purchased that resulted in harm…

Education will not stop people from getting caught in the death grip of heroin. Just as education does not stop people from smoking cigarettes today. And once an addict is born, as they say, that person will struggle with addiction for the rest of their lives even if they manage to abstain. I'm all for legalization of marijuana, but legalization of heroin is a very poor idea. Heroin must be kept out of the hands of t…

No one is saying education and legalization will end addiction. Rather, it could make it safer and lead to less overdose deaths.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#95

Post by senorjazz »

leereeves wrote: post #83
fiblye wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heroin wasn't historically a problem because the users died. Heroin's been a problem because of just how far people will go to get it, and how a massive amount of people will drop everything else in life just to get a steady supply of it. Opiates are the most addictive substances in the world. Once someone gets a taste of it, their life is forever changed. People can smoke a cigarette a couple times and decide it's n…

> There aren't many people who try heroin a couple times then realize they're busy and drop it forever. Millions of people have used legal opioid painkillers and moved on with their lives. Some people get addicted but for the legal opioids it's far from true that "once someone gets a taste of it, their life is forever changed." Is heroin that much more addictive than the legal variants?

No it isn't. You don't get addicted straight away, you have to work at it.

Just like cigarettes, you have one and don't like. Tastes foul, gives you a headache. But if you persevere, smoke 1, then more then more. Then after 10 days / 2 weeks of daily smoking you are starting to get addicted, same for heroin. You use it once, and if is any good, you are sick, violently so (vomiting, not dope sick), but persevere for 1-2 weeks the addiction will take hold.

Addiction tends to happen more with heroin, because people who would tend to trying it have other issues on in their life to give them the impetus to keep on trying it.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#96

Post by skellera »

meri_dian wrote: post #90
tmp-20150107 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of medical heroin, or other harm reduction programs, is to allow people to get on with their actual life without the all consuming addiction being front and centre all the time. I'm currently on a methadone program in the UK (there aren't any heroin based programmes as far as I know here) and it lets me keep up my job as a software engineer without daily worries about having to make sure I can score and not…

I'm curious to hear about your program. Is the goal to get you clean? Slowly wean you off heroin?

Heroin addiction is 90% looking for or doing something to get more. It’s an incredible time sink. It’s impossible to have a meaningful life like that.

What medically administered heroin does is allow people to get that time back so they can rebuild their lives. Once they see that things are better, they become more successful when finally coming off of it. Even if it takes forever, they are still productive members or society instead of a drain.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#97

Post by senorjazz »

throwaway9990 wrote: post #58
colechristensen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make everything legal to obtain or manufacture with a license attainable though education and certification – something in between what it takes to get a driver's license and an AA degree. If you want to buy heroin you have to understand it's addictive qualities, how human biology is affected, and how to recognize the negative consequences. Attach liability to the licensee for anything purchased that resulted in harm…

Would have loved for this to work, but there might be a few problems. 1. Some people might pass the test and sell it to others who didn't. 2. I'm not sure how education helps here. Everyone who takes heroin/cocaine knows how bad it is. I think people actually think it's much worse than it is. After taking a "health" class in high school, my friends and I said "wow, I thought drugs are much worse". For example, they s…

>2. I'm not sure how education helps here. Everyone who takes heroin/cocaine knows how bad it is. I think people actually think it's much worse than it is.

Respectfully, you are wrong. Nothing wrong at all going to the pub, having a few beers with friends and sharing a gram of coke.

Heroin itself isn't bad, is actually quite useful medically.

Just like drinking a bottle of whiskey is not good for you, but has a tiny relation to have a beer after work, the same for coke / heroin.

> After taking a "health" class in high school, my friends and I said "wow, I thought drugs are much worse". For example, they showed a recording of a lady taking MDMA and enjoying it in her room.

That is 99% the experience people have with MDMA. They have fun and no problems. So if the result of truthful information is people go out and have fun safely with zero problems, then what is the problem?

Legalise all drugs without discrimination. Provide true information and have access to health, mentalhealth workers at the place of purchase. Most opiate addicts do not want the life they have, but when 100% of your waking day is spent searching for the money to get your drugs / using drugs / feeling the effects of the drugs you have next to no time to seek help for the root cause of your issues. Provide these people with free medical grade drugs and other a support system for helping them become a part of society with the honest admission some people will never get clean, but if can be funded their drug can leave (relatively) normal lives as a functioning member of society

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#98

Post by wu-ikkyu »

meri_dian wrote: post #72
arca_vorago wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Does not adequately protect people from themselves, what do we do?" What we do as a society founded upon the principles of natural rights and liberties is stop trying to protect people from themselves. It always was, and always will be, a slippery and dangerous slope to collectivism and totalitarianism. The government has absolutely no right whatsoever to tell me what I can and can't do with my body, whether that is…

I don't accept the slippery slope argument. But, let's entertain your line of thinking. Let's get rid of the speed limit everywhere. We don't need the stinking government telling us how fast to drive! Oh, looks like traffic deaths are going up. Hm, maybe we should institute a speed limit... The point is that people do need to be told what to do - with an enforced penalty - in certain situations.

>The point is that people do need to be told what to do - with an enforced penalty - in certain situations.

What is the criteria for those "certain situations"?

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#99

Post by hycaria »

ananab wrote: post #67

Sounds like we're conflating 2 issues: (1) How we can we let addicts shoot up in a way that is safe for them (2) How can we let addicts shoot up in a way that is safe for their community Pardon my ignorance, but I think we should be focused on the safety of the community (2), more than how addicts can continue to abuse drugs safely (1). People have abused drugs for a long time (alcohol included), which results in sel…

But you realise they can't be on their own, without society and its working businesses to feed themselves, its healthcare facilities to care for them, its giving inhabitants to sustain their addiction... I also really wish I would not have to see the worst humanity and its hopelessness everytime I pass the nearby hospital that has a safe and free injection site, but sadly as a society we can't just give up on those people even though a ridiculous proportion is making it in the end.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#100

Post by Xylakant »

tmp-20150107 wrote: post #85
Retric wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knows several people that tried Heroin a few times and gave it up, but where addicted to cigarettes. Different people have different drug preferences ans I doubt we have good statistics on this stuff. I like many people where given opioids post surgery and ended up tossing the pills vs finishing the prescription, yet people get really addicted to the same medication.

Indeed, it's entirely possible for people to take heroin at the weekends or similar, and put it down without problems, and I know several friends who do it irregularly without getting addicted - although only smoking, I've never heard of anyone injecting IV heroin who wasn't an addict...

Injections are apparently much more potent than smoking, so it makes sense that people already addicted prefer that to keep the required amount lower. For recreational uses, smoking would just be much more practical.
Post reply on HN