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Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

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Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#61

Post by meri_dian »

blackbagboys wrote: post #30
sergers wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think safe injection sites solve that problem, it's about making a safe environment for junkies to safely take drugs in hopes they don't do it elsewhere littering needles and drug paraphernalia in other public spaces, especially around children. Now for the junkies, needs to be more than a safe haven to shoot up and definitely agree with your sentiments. I know they offer more than that, but some people just…

The hope is that the "junkies" don't die. If that is all that's accomplished, that's still a success. There doesn't need to be more. Obviously there should be an option for users to enter treatment or receive some sort of assistance, but addicts should definitely not be forced into anything just to satisfy some petit bourgeois stern moral impulse, because that will ultimately drive people away and cost lives.

I'm not sure how you've constructed morality in your mind, but if you choose to belittle people who want to protect innocent people from the ravages of heroin addiction, which is a lifelong sickness, then you are misguided.

The real measure of success is how few people become junkies in the first place.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#62

Post by Xylakant »

meri_dian wrote: post #59
colechristensen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make everything legal to obtain or manufacture with a license attainable though education and certification – something in between what it takes to get a driver's license and an AA degree. If you want to buy heroin you have to understand it's addictive qualities, how human biology is affected, and how to recognize the negative consequences. Attach liability to the licensee for anything purchased that resulted in harm…

Education will not stop people from getting caught in the death grip of heroin. Just as education does not stop people from smoking cigarettes today. And once an addict is born, as they say, that person will struggle with addiction for the rest of their lives even if they manage to abstain. I'm all for legalization of marijuana, but legalization of heroin is a very poor idea. Heroin must be kept out of the hands of t…

The death grip of heroin is mostly unrelated to the actual medical properties of heroin (or most opioids). The worst health effects come from the impurities in the substance (Strychnine, a common additive, is generally speaking not a substance beneficial to your health), the conditions under which it's used (shared needles, lack of hygiene) and the treadmill of having to organize funds for the next shot. Medically speaking, heroin is less harmful than alcohol. It's very hard to actually overdose if the purity is constant. It's a preferred drug for pallative care in many countries since it's effective and relatively easy to use (similar tor morphine).

Heroin addicts on a constant regime of pure heroin can be well-functioning members of society. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin-assisted_treatment

So if you truly care about the health of the afflicted persons, legalization with a strict control is the most effective option that is currently on the table.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#63

Post by meri_dian »

We are caught in an ideological chasm in the US. On one side is a harsh society wide approach like that of the Chinese. On the other hand is complete tolerance and legalization, which is more compatible with a Western social and political values. We are in an awkward spot somewhere in between.

Unfortunately we must measure success of our national drug programs by the number of people who do not become junkies. I say unfortunately because it seems that many people self medicate to deal with sadness or emptiness in their lives, which makes dealing with hard drug use a daunting task. How do we remove sadness from people's lives? How do we heal the abscess of loneliness?

Unfortunately people do not always make good decisions, even if they are content, well adjusted people. If we legalize heroin in the manner I believe we should with marijuana, I fear many more people than now will stumble into heroin addiction.

So caught in a valley between two extreme responses, one which is antithetical to our Western social constructs and another which does not adequately protect people from themselves, what do we do?

Perhaps the case of Portugal represents an alternative. While not legalizing the all drugs - you won't see commercials for Black Tar™ brand Heroin - Portugal has decriminalized all drugs, meaning that while they haven't granted heroin the tacit acceptance that comes with legalization, they have made life easier for those who inevitably do become addicts. Perhaps this is the best we can hope for.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#64

Post by meri_dian »

Xylakant wrote: post #62
meri_dian wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education will not stop people from getting caught in the death grip of heroin. Just as education does not stop people from smoking cigarettes today. And once an addict is born, as they say, that person will struggle with addiction for the rest of their lives even if they manage to abstain. I'm all for legalization of marijuana, but legalization of heroin is a very poor idea. Heroin must be kept out of the hands of t…

The death grip of heroin is mostly unrelated to the actual medical properties of heroin (or most opioids). The worst health effects come from the impurities in the substance (Strychnine, a common additive, is generally speaking not a substance beneficial to your health), the conditions under which it's used (shared needles, lack of hygiene) and the treadmill of having to organize funds for the next shot. Medically sp…

I understand what you are saying. I agree that heroin by itself is not very harmful to the body relative to some other drugs.

But let me be more clear about what I mean by "death grip".

When someone cares so much about a drug that it becomes the focal point of their lives, where they become so utterly ruled by the object of their addiction that friends and family and all else not the drug become secondary fixtures in their lives, then they have become the walking dead and are very much in the death grip.

I have seen it with friends. Some are still breathing, some are not.

Sure people on medical grade heroin regimens can continue to exist, but the drug will kill them inside nonetheless.

Revitalization is possible of course, but it is exceedingly difficult.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#65

Post by chefkoch »

throwaway9990 wrote: post #58
colechristensen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make everything legal to obtain or manufacture with a license attainable though education and certification – something in between what it takes to get a driver's license and an AA degree. If you want to buy heroin you have to understand it's addictive qualities, how human biology is affected, and how to recognize the negative consequences. Attach liability to the licensee for anything purchased that resulted in harm…

Would have loved for this to work, but there might be a few problems. 1. Some people might pass the test and sell it to others who didn't. 2. I'm not sure how education helps here. Everyone who takes heroin/cocaine knows how bad it is. I think people actually think it's much worse than it is. After taking a "health" class in high school, my friends and I said "wow, I thought drugs are much worse". For example, they s…

> 1. Some people might pass the test and sell it to others who didn't.

How would this be worse than now?

And there would not be enough money to make for "full time" dealer.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#66

Post by Xylakant »

meri_dian wrote: post #64
Xylakant wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The death grip of heroin is mostly unrelated to the actual medical properties of heroin (or most opioids). The worst health effects come from the impurities in the substance (Strychnine, a common additive, is generally speaking not a substance beneficial to your health), the conditions under which it's used (shared needles, lack of hygiene) and the treadmill of having to organize funds for the next shot. Medically sp…

I understand what you are saying. I agree that heroin by itself is not very harmful to the body relative to some other drugs. But let me be more clear about what I mean by "death grip". When someone cares so much about a drug that it becomes the focal point of their lives, where they become so utterly ruled by the object of their addiction that friends and family and all else not the drug become secondary fixtures in…

The point of medical heroine is that people on that regime can and do become well-functioning humans again. It’s not the drug that kills them, it’s the loss of all social support network and the ill effects that come with the situation.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#67

Post by ananab »

Sounds like we're conflating 2 issues:

(1) How we can we let addicts shoot up in a way that is safe for them

(2) How can we let addicts shoot up in a way that is safe for their community

Pardon my ignorance, but I think we should be focused on the safety of the community (2), more than how addicts can continue to abuse drugs safely (1).

People have abused drugs for a long time (alcohol included), which results in self-inflicted repercussions. Natural selection tends to weed these genes out if such people don't exert self-control and make a permanent clean break, as difficult as it may be.

My solution: legalize all drugs in limited geographic areas — far away from society at large (along the lines of Vegas). What happens there stays there, and feel free to stay there forever if you'd like.

I don't say that to be insensitive. I myself enjoyed alcohol too much, until it got me in enough trouble enough times that I decided the pain it caused my family & friends wasn't worth it. I had 2 choices in front of me: drink my life away and drag the people I care about with me through it all, or man up and swear it off for good.

I chose the latter. No therapy, AA, etc., just a deep sense of the injustice and lack of empathy in my actions, and living (and dead) examples before me in my family.

Had I been so weak to continue favoring my short term pleasure, it would serve me right to die early and put an end to everyone's pain (my own included).

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#68

Post by arca_vorago »

meri_dian wrote: post #63

We are caught in an ideological chasm in the US. On one side is a harsh society wide approach like that of the Chinese. On the other hand is complete tolerance and legalization, which is more compatible with a Western social and political values. We are in an awkward spot somewhere in between. Unfortunately we must measure success of our national drug programs by the number of people who do not become junkies. I say…

"Does not adequately protect people from themselves, what do we do?"

What we do as a society founded upon the principles of natural rights and liberties is stop trying to protect people from themselves. It always was, and always will be, a slippery and dangerous slope to collectivism and totalitarianism. The government has absolutely no right whatsoever to tell me what I can and can't do with my body, whether that is drinking beer, coke, smoking weed, or cigars, or eating lettuce. For by accepting the encroachment, you open the floodgates for arbitrary decisions on what can and can't be done.

It's not even that these thing need to be "legalized". It was never the right of the government either federal or state to determine them one way or the other. All the proper medical care, mentally and physically, and education about substances, would then be free to do its good work without the interference of lawyers attempting to legislate our lives.

This silent acquiescence of increasingly overreaching government must stop. It is anathema to everything America was founded upon.

"...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#69

Post by aninhumer »

meri_dian wrote: post #61
blackbagboys wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hope is that the "junkies" don't die. If that is all that's accomplished, that's still a success. There doesn't need to be more. Obviously there should be an option for users to enter treatment or receive some sort of assistance, but addicts should definitely not be forced into anything just to satisfy some petit bourgeois stern moral impulse, because that will ultimately drive people away and cost lives.

I'm not sure how you've constructed morality in your mind, but if you choose to belittle people who want to protect innocent people from the ravages of heroin addiction, which is a lifelong sickness, then you are misguided. The real measure of success is how few people become junkies in the first place.

>The real measure of success is how few people become junkies in the first place.

No, the real measure of success is how few peoples lives are ruined.

If a bunch of people end up addicted to heroin, but end up living fulfilling and productive lives regardless, that's a fairly good outcome. If implementing measures to reduce the number of addicts leads to the remaining ones living in poverty and overdosing, then that's not an improvement.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#70

Post by jimpick »

AnabeeKnox wrote: post #6
Phanyxx wrote: post #5

Here in Vancouver the safe injection sites have saved countless lives and drastically lowered needle sharing. There's a big misconception that safe injection sites somehow promote drug use. They save lives and give people a legitimate pathway to get clean if they choose to. Do the right thing, SF!

It might be a hard sell to use Vancouver as a model. It has an area which is perhaps the most public display of social decay I've ever encounted in a first-world city, principally from drug abuse.

Hey! You’re talking about my neighbourhood. (Well, I live a few blocks away in Yaletown, but I’ve spent most of the last 12 years working in Gastown/DTES, since that’s where the startups can afford rent)

The neighbourhood has vastly changed due to condo development, gentrification and government programs. The DTES was really run down a decade ago ... now it’s hipsters everywhere. Great coffee!

The population that has mental health and drug abuse issues has been pushed into a very small area in this city, largely due to past political decisions. Most of the social housing and services are primarily centralized in the DTES. Other neighbourhoods don’t want the social housing and the hard-to-house residents.

I think the drug situation was getting better, but then cheap fentanyl hit, and it’s been tough. Fentanyl is a crisis everywhere.

“Harm reduction” is the only ethical way to go, IMHO. I have friends in nursing that work at the Crosstown Clinic, where they are doing hardcore peer reviewed clinical trials involving prescription heroine, and they are genuinely saving lives and even getting hardcore junkies off drugs completely. Every other city in North America is leaving those people to die.

I’ll take Vancouver, thank you.

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