The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#91

Post by gedy » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 4:01 PM UTC

spodek wrote: post #65

> the third factor, Gideon said, was the empathy gap, where we tend to be more receptive to women’s pain than men’s. When women talk about being made to feel uncomfortable at work, or being sexually harassed, we feel empathy and want to punish the wrong-doers. But we don’t have the same reaction for “geeks,” or “techbros”. Because our understanding of neurodiversity is painfully lacking, our culture tends to view men…

This is a good summary of my experiences growing up. My friends and I were all considered nerds and wimpy boys, and experienced quite a bit of daily physical and verbal abuse in school. It was difficult/futile to get anyone in authority or the students to help and empathize.

Seeing the reaction and outrage when a boy slapped a girl in the hallway though was very telling where people's biases are.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#92

Post by TeMPOraL » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 4:21 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #45

danieltillett wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We really have to stop seeing people as members of a group first and an individual second. It is lazy thinking.

Survival on planet Earth has critically depended on lazy thinking: generalizing from incomplete scraps of information, and acting in real-time.

While true, our current environment of organized society of billions of humans, all within the same info-sphere[0] is significantly different than the environment our species developed in. A lot of our natural tendencies end up being maladaptive in this new world.

--

[0] - communication transcends distance now, and if something of importance happens anywhere in the world, almost everyone else on the planet knows about it in real-time.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#93

Post by _m8fo » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 4:30 PM UTC

namenotrequired wrote: post #19

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with claiming that genetics causes the success of certain races is that there is greater genetic variation within races than between them, and that there has been no discovered correlation between certain genetic traits and success. Plus that kind of thinking can lead to racist discrimination, which isn't good.

> there is greater genetic variation within races than between them This is true, which is why we can only say something useful about averages between populations, but not extrapolate to particular individuals. > there has been no discovered correlation between certain genetic traits and success This is very false. IQ is largely genetic, and the biggest predictor of life success of any kind, especially in relatively…

Have any evidence that IQ is "the biggest predictor of life success of any kind, especially in relatively well developed societies"?

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#94

Post by dominotw » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

Niksko wrote: post #8

This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class.…

> Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised

Back in the day when social/legal barriers were removed for women, general expectation was that women would rise to the top in wide variety of fields. But that hasn't really materialized(eg: only a handful of noble prizes), despite decades of preferential treatment, despite women being educated in number much higher than men.

So obvious conclusions to draw would be either 1. Admit the mistake in the feminist theory ( One is not born but becomes a woman). 2. There must be something else.

Only obvious answer is option 2 and the failure obviously should still be borne by the other party.

I remember reading a shocking line in nytimes article, something to the effect of

"I still believe in humanity of men, despite evidence to the contrary"

Basically distills the current attitude, womens' failure is mens' failure to be human. There is calls for all men to come forward and publicly admit this shame[1], maybe convince society that men are human too.

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/opinion/metoo-sexual-hara...

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#95

Post by walshemj » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #90

Using a "car company" Like tesla as an example of the tech industry's misogamy is just fracking stupid - does the Atlantic even have an "industrial correspondent" Teslas a car company and the sexism in those sort of blue collar traditional company's is way more prevalent To use a slightly more tech example in telecos when was the last time you saw a female lineman (engineer in UK terms)

To follow up my point using an example from a totally separate blue collar industry with massive gender imbalances and much more overt sexual harassment and discrimination allows hr in the tech industry to discredit the journalists and article in question.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#96

Post by jfk13 » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #90

Using a "car company" Like tesla as an example of the tech industry's misogamy is just fracking stupid - does the Atlantic even have an "industrial correspondent" Teslas a car company and the sexism in those sort of blue collar traditional company's is way more prevalent To use a slightly more tech example in telecos when was the last time you saw a female lineman (engineer in UK terms)

Anecdote, not data: Offhand, I can recall three separate times when I've had to have the telco send an engineer out to my house (at three different properties). One out of three was female.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#97

Post by blablabla123 » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #85

blablabla123 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I also observed that most people in tech seem to be kind of "statistically normal". However seeing myself more on the spectrum side and also being perceived as that, I noticed workplaces preferring me and similar people to rather work alone. It matches very much the traditional stereotype of putting the programmers in the cellar, not sure if that makes the workplaces more sociable - probably not. There's in my o…

Do you see that working more alone as a bad thing? One of my gripes with scrum and such is that such a thing is not possible.

I like working alone when building new things, so I can do what I want. (Also at that stage there is little risk of possibly annoying discussions.) But when there are problem, whether dev, op or requirements related, then being alone sucks.

I was working at one place for almost 2 years and I ended up working almost completely alone on the dev side (+ most of the ops). Things worked actually quite well and I could even work with some really crazy JS framework but it just started to become boring as hell. Because with work colleagues I could only talk about the superficial parts of my job - the rest was some kind of rabbit hole.

Not sure about the Scrum. I mean when the colleagues rather work alone, I guess each task can be done in solitude. That's at least more or less the case where I work.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#98

Post by ahartman00 » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #92

kazinator wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Survival on planet Earth has critically depended on lazy thinking: generalizing from incomplete scraps of information, and acting in real-time.

While true, our current environment of organized society of billions of humans, all within the same info-sphere[0] is significantly different than the environment our species developed in. A lot of our natural tendencies end up being maladaptive in this new world. -- [0] - communication transcends distance now, and if something of importance happens anywhere in the world , almost everyone else on the planet knows abo…

"natural tendencies end up being maladaptive in this new world"

Couldn't agree more, but I read the gp as being descriptive, not prescriptive. While I think we should work to be better, I think some people need to be more realistic in their expectations of time scale. That is, stop being so upset that human nature didn't change today because you said it was bad yesterday.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#99

Post by noobermin » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

superflyguy wrote: post #30

Niksko wrote: post #8

This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class.…

You wrote: -- Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: "Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class." Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily…

What evidence do we have that such a perspective is removing their individuality?

The argument those of us on the left make is that people's individuality, their talent etc are disregarded because of their class/attributes etc., and society as it is set-up punishes some classes while rewarding others, rather than rewarding individuals as individuals.

Re: The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

#100

Post by greenrd » Sun, Jan 07, 2018, 5:22 PM UTC

Joeboy wrote: post #74

jancsika wrote: post #71

> But we don’t have the same reaction for “geeks,” or “techbros”. Because our understanding of neurodiversity is painfully lacking, our culture tends to view men as a homogenous category, seeing all men as inheritors of privilege and all men as possessing the masculine traits that foster toughness and resilience. Back in reality, the stereotypes of male nerds/geeks are: * not interested in activities that leverage ma…

In the wider world, the stereotype of male geeks seems to be that having endured all the above we're seeking revenge on society (and especially women) for the wrongs they have inflicted on us. Admittedly in my actual life I don't perceive my actual self to be judged harshly by actual people, but in the abstract I get the strong impression that people like me are pretty awful. Edit: https://encrypted.google.com/search…

I guess it's an incentives thing. How much pushback do journalists ever get in their lives for writing lazy, uninformed and inaccurate articles like that? I'd guess jack squat, because we probably all think we have better things to do with our time than write letters of complaint to the editor. And we're probably right to think so.