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LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#91

Post by dawnerd »

mmmBacon wrote: post #83
v64 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So - the demonstrations following some police shootings aside, is there any significant push in the US to drive the police towards less lethal encounters with the public it is to serve and protect? I'm from the southern US, which is historically more conservative than the rest of the country. I'm not in any way claiming that the following viewpoints are universal and accepted in this region, but a large enough port…

Sorry but almost all the blame is on the person who pulls the trigger. Swatting is possible because of police militarization. Frankly while the idiot who made the call certainly shares some responsibility, our police policies of shoot first and ask questions later are the problem. When police are trained to respond to citizens, even violent ones, like enemies in war, we get the outcomes of police killings that we hav…

Exactly. This could have been avoided by asking the neighbors if there was gunfire or if they called. Seems weird that an “active shooter” would result in a quiet street. Surely they’d get multiple reports. This is where better training needs to come into play.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#92

Post by wl »

dopamean wrote: post #51

I will never, ever be able to accept that it is ok for the police to shoot a person who they do not see carrying a weapon. There is no circumstance in which you can say you feared for your life if you did not see a weapon. And if you legitimately did fear for your life when you didn't see a weapon then maybe you shouldn't be a police officer.

It doesn't take a weapon to kill someone. A rather infamous example in recent years is the death of Eric Gardner. Deadly force is deadly force—regardless of the form it comes in.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#93

Post by Malician »

Dove wrote: post #60
burntwater wrote: post #14

I'm glad this person is an adult located in the U.S. Hopefully this makes for swift and severe justice. I'm sad to learn the victim was the father of two children. And I'm mad that police are shooting people, innocent or not, based on vague gestures that sorta, maybe, if you look at it from the right angle, looks a little threatening. I said yesterday that, as a hearing-impaired person, if I'm ever in a position wher…

> And I'm mad that police are shooting people, innocent or not, based on vague gestures that sorta, maybe, if you look at it from the right angle, looks a little threatening. I can understand that, but I recommend caution when it comes to judgement. Combat is every bit as technical as system architecture, and I think it requires related experience to judge fairly. Movies prepare you to critique a fighter about as wel…

This is true, if you think in terms of "behavior required to win in a fight against someone who ambushes you with intent to kill." Action beats reaction. And there's no way to maintain both your behavior and the situation of every encounter, all tens of thousands of them per officer across every officer in the country in such a way that you're safe against someone like the attackers in those videos. It can't happen.

Most people don't have combat background. They come in a range of IQs, a range of behavioral disorders, of intoxication of various means, of absurd beliefs and paranoias and irrationalities and mental health disorders. They are unpredictable and unreliable and don't use their turn signals let alone follow spot-on perfect form in an unexpected situation with adrenaline pumping.

As a result, almost everyone shot by police will have done something to "justify" it by the standard of behavior you have here. Since police usually are called on someone who is engaged in somewhat unsavory behavior (usually drug related,) it's really easy to paint the shooter in a negative light. A lot of people respond to a shooting incident with - "another lowlife, gangbanger, or meth-head, who cares?"

With cops on a hair trigger primed with videos of trained killers ambushing fellow police, any incident where a police officer gets scared for any reason could lead to your death. What this video and incident shows is that this is still true for your average Joe with no drugs and no reason to be connected to the police in any way. This is no less true for many people who were shot and killed as the result of a traffic stop or a drug bust - they didn't necessarily deserve to be killed, their death is no less tragic - it's just less evident.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#94

Post by qaq »

burntwater wrote: post #56
maxerickson wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US military people are often quite critical of the rules of engagement employed by US police. Even in potentially more dangerous situations the military typically is much more disciplined and slower to use lethal force.

Perhaps one answer here is to require military service before becoming a police officer. That potentially could solve two issues; better trained police, and employment for veterans.

I wonder why you are being down voted? Many military guys have served in way more dangerous places while observing in many situation rules like do not fire unless fired upon etc.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#95

Post by blhack »

I always grew up thinking that police had to wait until somebody shot at them to shoot back.

It seems like "we thought he had a gun and he motioned towards his waist" has now replaced "he shot at us".

I really wish that the police had to adhere to the same laws as anybody else does. They are civilians after all.

If had a gun (I don't) and pointed it at somebody to intimidate them, even if they were trying to break into my house, I could get in trouble for "brandishing". Yet civilian police pull their guns out and point them at people all the time.

The can't believe that we allow these people can put themselves into a position where they're deciding if they're going to kill you or not, and the mere press of a small lever on their hand KILLS YOU and that this is just considered okay...

It's just absolutely ridiculous to me.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#96

Post by Silhouette »

drtillberg wrote: post #65
lb1lf wrote: post #18

Coming from a country where the police spends more time developing people skills than doing gun practice, it never ceases to puzzle me how the solution to any situation appears to be to shoot anything that moves on the flimsiest of assumptions, then figure out what happened afterwards. Now, I appreciate that the police in the US does face a population with more guns on hand than the Norwegian police does; this surely…

At one time, police in the U.S. were trained that to shoot to kill-- only. If the officer discharged the weapon at all, she emptied the magazine and aimed to kill. No warning shots, no shots to disable, that would be against training. Thus confusion, inattention, or misunderstanding in the face of commands from a self-identified officer easily can be a lethal situation.

If you haven't done anything wrong, and then one day your home is surrounded by a paramilitary force barking instructions at you and threatening your life, confusion, inattention and misunderstanding are inevitable. If police procedures don't allow for that, they are fundamentally broken.

This tragic outcome could have been avoided many times, and in most of those cases, the difference would have been in the behaviour of the police.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#97

Post by dawnerd »

Dove wrote: post #70
lb1lf wrote: post #18

Coming from a country where the police spends more time developing people skills than doing gun practice, it never ceases to puzzle me how the solution to any situation appears to be to shoot anything that moves on the flimsiest of assumptions, then figure out what happened afterwards. Now, I appreciate that the police in the US does face a population with more guns on hand than the Norwegian police does; this surely…

I don't think it's reasonable or effective to entirely expect police to solve this problem. Here is the account from the article: Livingston said when the door opened, officers gave Finch commands to put his hands up and walk toward them. He complied for a "very short time" and put his hands back down. He raised them again, and then lowered them for a second time, Livingston said. "The male then turned towards the of…

Oh just like that hotel shooting where the cops told the guy to crawl forward with his hands behind his head (or something like that) and kept giving him conflicting tasks before opening fire?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#98

Post by tacomonstrous »

Dove wrote: post #60
burntwater wrote: post #14

I'm glad this person is an adult located in the U.S. Hopefully this makes for swift and severe justice. I'm sad to learn the victim was the father of two children. And I'm mad that police are shooting people, innocent or not, based on vague gestures that sorta, maybe, if you look at it from the right angle, looks a little threatening. I said yesterday that, as a hearing-impaired person, if I'm ever in a position wher…

> And I'm mad that police are shooting people, innocent or not, based on vague gestures that sorta, maybe, if you look at it from the right angle, looks a little threatening. I can understand that, but I recommend caution when it comes to judgement. Combat is every bit as technical as system architecture, and I think it requires related experience to judge fairly. Movies prepare you to critique a fighter about as wel…

>Pretend the cop is a dinosaur or something and sudden movement will provoke him.

It's really perverse that I have to train myself to deal safely with a purported practised officer of the law.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#99

Post by danpalmer »

Having unfortunately seen a police body cam video of an obviously unarmed man being shot, and having read about this one, it seems to be a case of men hitching their trousers up because they aren’t wearing a belt, being mistaken for reaching for a gun.

This is a normal thing, it’s an unconscious thing, we do it without thinking so can’t stop when told not to do it. People should not die because they’re wearing loose fitting trousers.

Americans need to be doing more about their fellow citizens being murdered by the people supposed to protect them.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#100

Post by WhatIsDukkha »

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced.

You are a cop with 5+ other cops.

You all pull your guns.

Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police.

They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence.

We now begin the dice rolling process.

Since every police officer with a gun drawn is now a DECIDER they get a dice roll.

Every single millisecond, all these dice are rolled simultaneously for the entire arrest process as the "suspect" is ordered around like they haven't been since grade school gym class.

This process is designed to have a weapon be discharged.

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