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Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

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Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#91

Post by [deleted] »

austenallred wrote: post #64
bitwize wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upward mobility is possible, but is much easier in a society which provides adequate social safety nets and assures greater equality overall. The USA is not such a society. The inability of the lower classes to move upward, perpetuating the cycle of poverty, is a well-recognized problem (unless you're a Republican or libertard).

> libertard I'm not a libertarian (or a Republican), but referring to groups in these types of ways (repuglican, libtard, obummer, etc.) always seems to me to indicate somebody that isn't interested in rational discussion, and is dismissive of any ideas that don't jive exactly with their current, deeply-embedded political philosophy. I'd love for you to prove me wrong.

[deleted]

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#92

Post by austenallred »

SapphireSun wrote: post #85
SapphireSun wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've arrived at the unthinkable thought. Why indeed, in a very rich country, do any poor people at all exist? Why is this crime not remedied immediately? The only possible explanation in a democratic society, is that somehow the upper classes have rigged the system via political machinations, voter suppression, dividing the intermediate classes against each other, and propaganda. It's a sobering thought. We might a…

You're downvoting me, and that's natural. I assume the bulk of vocal HNers are ancap libertarians (possibly some of you aligning with the Dark Enlightenment). However, you should take what I said more seriously. It represents a point of view with which you've perhaps had little contact, but is held by a significant (possibly even growing) portion of the population. It is diametrically opposed to many of the precepts…

The reason you’re getting downvoted has less to do with your argument and more to do with your tone.

The strawman doesn’t help either.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#93

Post by roseburg »

AstralStorm wrote: post #83
roseburg wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a shortage of trades workers, and it's only going to get worse because the bulk of the workers are currently older and are retiring much, much faster than they are being replaced. We are just at the beginning of a crises level shortage. Labor prices will continue to rise and this will be absorbed by everyone.

In a supposed American model this means there should be more competition, right? And the companies will be happy to pay those increased wages to US workers? (I'm being facetious devil advocate here.)

:) They are having to pay higher wages. The wealthy in bigger cities are able to absorb these higher costs. It has a much bigger toll on the middle class in smaller cities because they have the same shortages, but less money to pay the increased costs.

There won't be more competition in the short term because still, only 3% of graduating high school students are even considering a career in the trades. It's going to take quite a while for the ship to turn around.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#94

Post by forapurpose »

As is often the case, the answer is built into how the question is framed:

If we frame the question as, 'what is the most efficient way to train people with directly salable skills', then college is inefficient and probably not the best solution.

But if the question is, 'how do we best prepare people for life, including critical thinking and knowledge about the world, and to improve our society', college blows away any trade school. Four years spent studying the leading thinkers, thinking, and critical approaches in a diverse array of fields, tutored by leading experts, is an incredible way to sharpen your mind, knowledge, and critical thought. Also, as most in IT realize, learning specific skills in IT is far less valuable over the long run than learning theory which then can be applied even as technology changes. Consider the liberal arts as the 'theory' of other fields.

Many people on one hand bemoan the political situation, the ignorance, and the inability to discern propaganda from fact; while on the other hand they dismiss liberal arts as useless. The latter has developed, almost precisely, as the solution to the former. Society doesn't just work; we need to advance it, which requires understanding the world, its problems and their solutions. These are very hard problems, and learning Java or physics won't solve them.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#95

Post by dba7dba »

I entered high school in California right as woodshop classes were being shuttered due to lower funding and also people wanting the students spend more time preparing for college, not in a woodshop.

I think some might have benefited more by going to woodshop classes. Who knows?

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#96

Post by dba7dba »

holydude wrote: post #88

Germany is the country that lost the battle but won the war. I am not saying Germany is not full of hard working and smart people but consider this. Germany wreaked havoc on its neighbors effectively killing huge % of their populations,destroying trillions of $ worth of infrastructure and industries and much more. Yet they only paid dimes to these countries because someone smart people decided they must be the balanc…

Victors tried making Germany pay for causing destruction to other neighbors, after WWI. And that contributed significantly to the rise of Hitler and WW2. The Marshall Plan was created because of lesson learned from end of WWI.

And yes, with the rise of Soviets, Germany was the only 'reliable' force to reply on to counter Soviets. No one after WW2 would've thought of relying on the French to counter the Soviets. Nothing against the French, and you should also note France effectively left NATO over disagreements with other NATO allies. AFAIK, no NATO member left NATO except for France.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#97

Post by allendoerfer »

holydude wrote: post #88

Germany is the country that lost the battle but won the war. I am not saying Germany is not full of hard working and smart people but consider this. Germany wreaked havoc on its neighbors effectively killing huge % of their populations,destroying trillions of $ worth of infrastructure and industries and much more. Yet they only paid dimes to these countries because someone smart people decided they must be the balanc…

The allies tried to learn from WWI, where they took different decisions and it did not work too well. You are right, that Germany's export-oriented model would not be possible, if nobody traded with them.

I don't think your points are very strong, though: Germany was well off before the Euro. I am also not seeing that Germany is more corrupt than other countries. Saying "solely" and mentioning other factors in the next sentence, does not really make sense.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#98

Post by holydude »

dba7dba wrote: post #96
holydude wrote: post #88

Germany is the country that lost the battle but won the war. I am not saying Germany is not full of hard working and smart people but consider this. Germany wreaked havoc on its neighbors effectively killing huge % of their populations,destroying trillions of $ worth of infrastructure and industries and much more. Yet they only paid dimes to these countries because someone smart people decided they must be the balanc…

Victors tried making Germany pay for causing destruction to other neighbors, after WWI. And that contributed significantly to the rise of Hitler and WW2. The Marshall Plan was created because of lesson learned from end of WWI. And yes, with the rise of Soviets, Germany was the only 'reliable' force to reply on to counter Soviets. No one after WW2 would've thought of relying on the French to counter the Soviets. Nothi…

I know. I am not that salty about this though I hate it when Germany is presented as a role model because in many things it is not and its success cannot be replicated. It is what it is.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#99

Post by holydude »

allendoerfer wrote: post #97
holydude wrote: post #88

Germany is the country that lost the battle but won the war. I am not saying Germany is not full of hard working and smart people but consider this. Germany wreaked havoc on its neighbors effectively killing huge % of their populations,destroying trillions of $ worth of infrastructure and industries and much more. Yet they only paid dimes to these countries because someone smart people decided they must be the balanc…

The allies tried to learn from WWI, where they took different decisions and it did not work too well. You are right, that Germany's export-oriented model would not be possible, if nobody traded with them. I don't think your points are very strong, though: Germany was well off before the Euro. I am also not seeing that Germany is more corrupt than other countries. Saying "solely" and mentioning other factors in the ne…

I am not trying to make a point here I am just stating that Germany took advantage of the EURO currency. Germany was not that well off. The trade before the EU and Eurozone was much more balanced in my opinion though this is hard to compare and measure.

What I tried to say is that Germany among other rich and developed countries is the cause of the corruption in less developed countries.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#100

Post by [deleted] »

dba7dba wrote: post #96
holydude wrote: post #88

Germany is the country that lost the battle but won the war. I am not saying Germany is not full of hard working and smart people but consider this. Germany wreaked havoc on its neighbors effectively killing huge % of their populations,destroying trillions of $ worth of infrastructure and industries and much more. Yet they only paid dimes to these countries because someone smart people decided they must be the balanc…

Victors tried making Germany pay for causing destruction to other neighbors, after WWI. And that contributed significantly to the rise of Hitler and WW2. The Marshall Plan was created because of lesson learned from end of WWI. And yes, with the rise of Soviets, Germany was the only 'reliable' force to reply on to counter Soviets. No one after WW2 would've thought of relying on the French to counter the Soviets. Nothi…

[deleted]
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