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Pale Moon blocks AdNauseam extension

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Re: Pale Moon blocks AdNauseam extension

#91

Post by notgood »

icebraining wrote: post #82
donohoe wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't quite work that way. Yes, it decreases the usefulness of ad networks and hurts them - hopefully inciting change eventually. But between the reader and the ad network is the website owner. They typically have no say or control over the ad network. As fake clicks are detected they are the ones that will get punished. Their CPN can drop meaning a real hit in revenue. If fake ad clicks add up they may be boote…

They typically have no say or control over the ad network. How so? They chose the ad network, no?

So what? What happens next? Do I have to ask every creator of ad attacks extensions like AdNauseam if the ad network I wanna use fits in their definition of "good" before adding it to my site? Do I have to ask them for permission about what HTML/JavaScript can I place in my website?

Worse, what happens if they think every ad network that fits my user-base is evil? Then what? I still need to make ends meet so should I try to bribe the AdNauseam devs into whitelisting my site?

That's the thing about attacking on the basis of having the moral high ground, you are very likely to end up becoming the thing you hate.

EDIT: (cause HN doesn't let me reply)

Answer to @icebraining

It's way more like, what if I'm pouring red colorant to the rivers, and I know the colorants make absolutely no damage to the river but activists still try to destroy my business because they strongly believe so.

So yeah, I find your counter-argument depressing as well; because its not about who is right or wrong but the one who believes themselves in control to determine being both the judge and the executioner.

Answer to @wongarsu:

After installed this extension silently attacks networks, and you think people is gonna care enough to jump to the next best one... because you think they are constantly reading about the moral basis of the blacklisted ad networks? ...right? You are more delusional than expected and I hope ad networks start pouring money into permanently banning users of this extension from all major websites.

Re: Pale Moon blocks AdNauseam extension

#92

Post by wongarsu »

notgood wrote: post #77
wongarsu wrote: post #27

>Generating this kind of traffic does not achieve its intended goal (providing protest against ad networks or causing advertising to fail for ad networks) since the ones punished are the publishers (those who rely on this revenue) and not the ad networks. I don't think I follow? People don't like the ad networks and want them to change or fail. That's achievable by forcing change at either the advertiser, the network…

> That's achievable by forcing change at either the advertiser, the network or the website owner. ...Or the user; you see, if people starts getting blocked for using this extension you know what's going to happen once word gets around? That's right, users start avoiding the extension.

At best, people would selectively disable it on some websites like they currently do with regular ad blockers.

Re: Pale Moon blocks AdNauseam extension

#93

Post by belorn »

donohoe wrote: post #48
hbbio wrote: post #19

The motto of Pale Moon is "Your browser, Your way". But apparently not very so... The current ad system is broken and, although I understand Google decision to protect its own profits, I don't see why an open source project that aims to provide an unbiased browsing experience would follow suit.

But thats just it. The extension, by trying to provide a "unbiased browsing experience" to the user but sending false clicks to the networks, is punishing the author/publisher in the middle. This is a bad analogy but the closest I can find: Its like saying I don't like big book publishers so I'm not going to pay for the book at the independent book store. Again, that analogy quickly falls apart but the initial point…

The analogy falls very quickly apart since if a website uses a ad network that don't track users, then AdNauseam extension does nothing.

Its like saying I don't like big book publishers so I'm not going to pay for the book at their stores, but i will pay for the book at the independent book store.

It goes without saying that big book publishers are book publishers because they can out compete the independent book store, like using vendor lock-in.

Re: Pale Moon blocks AdNauseam extension

#94

Post by notgood »

wongarsu wrote: post #92
notgood wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's achievable by forcing change at either the advertiser, the network or the website owner. ...Or the user; you see, if people starts getting blocked for using this extension you know what's going to happen once word gets around? That's right, users start avoiding the extension.

At best, people would selectively disable it on some websites like they currently do with regular ad blockers.

you are underestimating how lazy users are; many people disable right away ad-blockers or any extension as soon as it starts blocking any website that matters to them; I'm not really sure if its the majority or not; but its not a minority.

Re: Pale Moon blocks AdNauseam extension

#95

Post by chuckdries »

Rjevski wrote: post #58
Stratoscope wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to the general case here, but after reading Chuck's other comment, I think you may be mistaken about his website specifically: > We don't even use an ad network a la google, we sell our own ads to local businesses and such. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15112764

In this case, I really doubt this extension would hurt him - how the extension works is just like uBlock uses lists to hide things, AdNauseam uses the same lists to explicitly click on those items. His own ads wouldn't match any of the rules in those lists and unless they are extremely obnoxious nobody would bother adding his ads in there. If he does get on one of those lists it's quite easy to change the markup of t…

I can't speak to adnauseum specifically, but a lot of ad blockers use a combination of techniques to detect ads that are surprisingly hard to circumvent.

But just in general, I don't believe I should have to spend my time cat-and-mousing ad detection. It's not sustainable, especially for a paper that only employs 2 developers, which is rare. Most papers don't have developers in house, they contract out this work, or if they're owned by a conglomerate like Gannett, their owner handles it. It also feels sketchy, circumventing ad detection sounds like something obnoxious malicious ad makers would do.

EDIT: having just tested it, Ublock Origin does block the ads on our website.

Re: Pale Moon blocks AdNauseam extension

#96

Post by wongarsu »

notgood wrote: post #91
icebraining wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They typically have no say or control over the ad network. How so? They chose the ad network, no?

So what? What happens next? Do I have to ask every creator of ad attacks extensions like AdNauseam if the ad network I wanna use fits in their definition of "good" before adding it to my site? Do I have to ask them for permission about what HTML/JavaScript can I place in my website? Worse, what happens if they think every ad network that fits my user-base is evil? Then what? I still need to make ends meet so should I…

AdNauseam has a clear definition of "good" ad networks [1]: with default settings it allows ads that obey do-not-track headers, as tracked by the EFF.

Of course in theory they could become some kind of evil authoritarian censor board. But that would cause a lot of users to jump to the next best extension. It's not really a big threat.

>what happens if they think every ad network that fits my user-base is evil?

That sounds unlikely, but if that happens and you are too small to manage your ads yourself, you should find a different revenue stream. Or start an ad network, since you've obviously just found an under-served market niche :)

1:https://github.com/dhowe/AdNauseam/wiki/FAQ#what-is-the-effs...

Re: Pale Moon blocks AdNauseam extension

#97

Post by icebraining »

notgood wrote: post #91
icebraining wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They typically have no say or control over the ad network. How so? They chose the ad network, no?

So what? What happens next? Do I have to ask every creator of ad attacks extensions like AdNauseam if the ad network I wanna use fits in their definition of "good" before adding it to my site? Do I have to ask them for permission about what HTML/JavaScript can I place in my website? Worse, what happens if they think every ad network that fits my user-base is evil? Then what? I still need to make ends meet so should I…

I don't even use Adnauseam, but I find it a bit depressing that you don't see the flaw in that argument.

Let's leave ads aside and think of something else. Say businesses were dumping toxic chemicals into rivers, and activists were plugging those pipes. Would "I still need to make ends meet" be a valid excuse for those businesses?

Now, I'm sure you don't consider online advertising to be the same as dumping toxic chemicals. Like I said, I don't use the addon either. But for those who do, your argument is simply invalid. And the claim that they become the thing they hate makes no sense.

Re: Pale Moon blocks AdNauseam extension

#99

Post by JohnTHaller »

belorn wrote: post #93
donohoe wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But thats just it. The extension, by trying to provide a "unbiased browsing experience" to the user but sending false clicks to the networks, is punishing the author/publisher in the middle. This is a bad analogy but the closest I can find: Its like saying I don't like big book publishers so I'm not going to pay for the book at the independent book store. Again, that analogy quickly falls apart but the initial point…

The analogy falls very quickly apart since if a website uses a ad network that don't track users, then AdNauseam extension does nothing. Its like saying I don't like big book publishers so I'm not going to pay for the book at their stores, but i will pay for the book at the independent book store. It goes without saying that big book publishers are book publishers because they can out compete the independent book sto…

So, 99.9% of small websites with ads. Meaning, yes, this is harmful to small websites.

Re: Pale Moon blocks AdNauseam extension

#100

Post by chuckdries »

kilburn wrote: post #89
chuckdries wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are punishing me and only me. We don't use an ad network, we sell our ad space directly to local businesses. Fake ad clicks have been actively hurting our ability to sell ads for about a year now. Our ads are pictures. Pictures are not malware. Also what ads cause damage? Like sure the ads on porn or piratebay are cancerous but no reputable newspaper will have anything harmful, just potentially annoying.

Your story doesn't add up to me. > We don't use an ad network, we sell our ad space directly to local businesses. Fine, so you either (a) tell a business that you have XXX page views per month so they'll get YYY impressions (which may be blocked, but that you can try to make non-intrusive); or (b) you let the advertiser track the value they receive from ads placed on your site. In the (a) case, there shouldn't be any…

As I understand it, what we do is closer to B. I'm not on the ad sales team, but the way it was explained to me, our ad partners have analytics on their website like everyone does these days, and they generally give us a link specific to our website that they can look at the analytics on and tell how many people visited that page, therefore how many people clicked the link. I'm told they see huge spikes in traffic that looks fake and get angry, threaten to drop us, etc. Basically they accuse us of artificially inflating our numbers, and without super detailed analysis it's hard to tell what is and is not fake. If you compare the traffic coming in to their affiliate links to the traffic we record on our own analytics, I'm told it looks super suspicious.

EDIT: apparently some advertisers have ad content prepared they give us that uses common advertising tools like doubleclick.net and such.

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