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UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

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Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#91

Post by msla »

robin_reala wrote: post #11
Nursie wrote: post #8

Still got Google Analytics on the page. I do not feel that reporting every online interaction I have with my government in the UK, back to a huge corporate in the US, is in any way appropriate. But I can't even get anyone to engage on the issue. When I tried to raise it I got directed to a helpdesk ticket on a site run by an SV helpdesk-as-a-service company. I appreciate that gov.uk have done some great stuff getting…

GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data, and Google self-anonymises with a flag in their API[1]. If you don’t trust them then that’s fine, but for functionality vs cost it seems to be the best option. For what it’s worth, for extremely sensitive projects like GOV.UK Verify other options are fine; Verify uses a local Piwik instance. You’re also welcome to block that specific…

> GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data

What's the penalty for completely disregarding that?

Is it anywhere near large enough to justify them not disregarding it?

More to the point: Pretty much the only thing a contract can do is impose a monetary penalty. Even if it's quite large, it's still only money, and Google rakes in money by the bushel basket from selling data to advertisers. Therefore, it isn't a very convincing penalty.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#92

Post by johneth »

sitepodmatt wrote: post #86
robin_reala wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ‘Apply for a passport’ you linked to service is pretty old now and doesn’t reflect GDS’s current recommendations; as far as I understand it it was more of a reskin of an already existing system than anything done from the ground up. However there’s a newer service available from https://www.gov.uk/apply-renew-passport that is much more modern and actively developed. I’m not sure why they’re both still up (althoug…

The link you posted redirects to original UX disaster after answering ten or so questions (each their own page and a click next). Seems you will only stay on the new site for booking and paying for a traditional walkin appointment.

> (each their own page and a click next)

I think it's made that way so that it works without Javascript.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#93

Post by [deleted] »

monort wrote: post #43
coffeedoughnuts wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it sad? I'm quite proud to pay taxes of many different kinds, and I think that the (admittedly quite imperfect) tax system is necessary to a functioning society. I'd also mention that it's been part of British society since the Roman occupation, so not sure when in time you allude to with your comment but if you're sad about it I suggest investigating a move to one of the functional libertarian nations with no tax…

Imagine you are a Roman and arguing that slave owning is necessary to a functioning society. You are probably even correct and Roman state wouldn't be possible without slaves. Nevertheless, we know that it wasn't an ethical state order. Taxes are similar - they are involuntary, they are required to have a modern state and they are status quo. Looking at the past, we see that more and more ways to force people do thin…

[deleted]

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#94

Post by Osmium »

yomly wrote: post #66
robin_reala wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data, and Google self-anonymises with a flag in their API[1]. If you don’t trust them then that’s fine, but for functionality vs cost it seems to be the best option. For what it’s worth, for extremely sensitive projects like GOV.UK Verify other options are fine; Verify uses a local Piwik instance. You’re also welcome to block that specific…

Are you at GDS? Please can you tell your friends at HMRC that the login system is the most janky UX I've ever experienced and is prone to social engineering due to how complex it is.

Sadly looks like there's a turf war going on. So dumb.

[1] "HMRC rejects Gov.uk Verify", http://www.computerweekly.com/news/450412927/HMRC-rejects-Go... [2] http://www.computerweekly.com/news/450301278/Revealed-The-ba...

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#95

Post by chimprich »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #64
richmarr wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...or a Statist asking for a defence of voluntary taxation Calling the vast majority of people "statist" seems to imply a (false) equivalence between voluntary and compulsorary taxation as competing theories. Voluntary taxation is a fringe theory with some fairly serious flaws... the primary one in my opinion being that it erodes democracy by pushing even more influence over government into the hands of people with…

> Voluntary taxation is a fringe theory with some fairly serious flaws... the primary one in my opinion being that it erodes democracy by pushing even more influence over government into the hands of people with deep enough pockets to pay more (but only when they're happy). The incentives in that kind of system would be all wrong. It's a side issue to the one we're discussing, but ... that's what we have right now, a…

> I hope the vast majority of people would stump up that kind of cash in the absence of any other taxation.

This is, in my view, a pretty naive (maybe to be polite I should say highly optimistic) view of human nature. Even if a majority of people planned to pay it I suspect many would end up not paying it most months as other priorities intervened.

Even if, say, 60% of people did end up paying the voluntary "taxation", a large number would pay nothing. The total sum required would be the same and those willing to pay would have to pay significantly more or there would be a huge shortfall. This would be extremely unfair; freeloaders would get a huge effective pay rise and consequently more influence in society.

In practical terms it would be very difficult to pay for services if if it was not possible to predict how much tax was to be gathered from month to month. Government income would fluctuate wildly. Employment in the public sector would be very risky. The economy would be extremely volatile to say the least. Planning for the future would be next to impossible.

There are many more ethical and practical problems with this idea. I could go on.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#96

Post by maverick2 »

chatmasta wrote: post #83

I went through a visa application process for the UK over the past few months. The main gov.uk site is a very good website for finding information, well designed, works on mobile, etc. Coming from the US, that was quite refreshing -- there's no equivalent in the US as everything is scattered across 100 different agency websites in 50 states. However the "business logic" of gov.uk is still sorely lacking. For the actu…

Canada's is same way. I am from India, and been in US for about half a decade. US's process is completely old school.

Canada had plans to integrate all citizen services through one account dashboard, curious to see how countries roll-out services like those in next decade or so.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#98

Post by chatmasta »

maverick2 wrote: post #96
chatmasta wrote: post #83

I went through a visa application process for the UK over the past few months. The main gov.uk site is a very good website for finding information, well designed, works on mobile, etc. Coming from the US, that was quite refreshing -- there's no equivalent in the US as everything is scattered across 100 different agency websites in 50 states. However the "business logic" of gov.uk is still sorely lacking. For the actu…

Canada's is same way. I am from India, and been in US for about half a decade. US's process is completely old school. Canada had plans to integrate all citizen services through one account dashboard, curious to see how countries roll-out services like those in next decade or so.

It will be especially difficult in the US where many of those services are federated across all fifty states.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#99

Post by toyg »

pjc50 wrote: post #35
toyg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is in Five-Eyes and Google is a US intelligence partner - they would know even without analytics on the site, don't worry.

I would have thought the UK government would know who was visiting UK government web sites without having to ask GCHQ, but who knows.

The point is that Google will know, as GCHQ let the Americans spy on UK networks and Google is close to American spooks.

Re: UK Government's Payment Infrastructure Is Now Open Source

#100

Post by blibble »

msla wrote: post #91
robin_reala wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data, and Google self-anonymises with a flag in their API[1]. If you don’t trust them then that’s fine, but for functionality vs cost it seems to be the best option. For what it’s worth, for extremely sensitive projects like GOV.UK Verify other options are fine; Verify uses a local Piwik instance. You’re also welcome to block that specific…

> GDS’s GA Premium account contractually prevents Google from investigating the data What's the penalty for completely disregarding that? Is it anywhere near large enough to justify them not disregarding it? More to the point: Pretty much the only thing a contract can do is impose a monetary penalty. Even if it's quite large, it's still only money, and Google rakes in money by the bushel basket from selling data to a…

in this specific case they would be messing with the UK government on a controversial topic in the public view... the contractual penalty would be the least of their worries
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