Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 249 posts

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#91

Post by literallycancer »

anovikov wrote: post #71

I can't see how 20% is a 'perfectly just world'. It is not a perfectly just - it is a perfectly random world. If it was 20%, it means that person from every family (wrt. parent's incomes) has equal chance to end up rich or poor, meaning that there is nothing that parents could do to help their child. It means nothing but a totalitarian, concentration camp society, because even if education, healthcare etc. are perfec…

You could have equal chance to end up in the top quintile when measuring income, and still do things to help your kids succeed. It would just mean that those things wouldn't depend on the family income.

E.g. people whose family is more educated than the average would have better chances to end up in the top quintile by income, regardless of how much money they make.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#92

Post by jeffdavis »

In other words, the left and the right are both wrong.

The left is wrong because it focuses too much on money and entitlements rather than real help. It also uses big government only, which crowds out local solutions, churches, and NGOs. Beyond that, many on the left are actively hostile towards religion.

The right is wrong because they scale back government without doing the hard work to build alternative solutions, and leave people stranded.

(Obviously these are caricatures and not to be taken personally.)

Sounds like the people in Utah have somethibg figured out.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#93

Post by tyingq »

api wrote: post #89
tyingq wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn't it the case with every group with strong identity? It's particularly troublesome in Utah because ~60% of the population is Mormon. It's not difficult to imagine a scenario where you lose your job, or an important supplier relationship because you left the church. Yes, it can happen elsewhere, but there aren't too many places in the US where a single religion is so dominant. It doesn't even have to involve leav…

Southern Baptism is that dominant in many parts of the South.

Across an entire state or city larger than 100,000 population? (not challenging you...just curious)

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#94

Post by TulliusCicero »

m-j-fox wrote: post #86

A religious organization subsumes state roles, providing social services as a way to reinforce social cohesion as well as the power structure in the religious hierarchy. The authorities dictate everything from clothing style to "volunteer" effort. Young men are exploited for their energy and lack of common sense to expand borders. Guys, am I talking about the Latter-Day Saints or ISIS? I'll bet you a beer that Megan…

I'm also ex-mormon, but you seem to be letting your personal issues with the church get the better of you here. Yeah there are absolutely some cultural problems in Utah stemming from the LDS culture, but it is nevertheless true that there are a bunch of positives as well.

Your attempted explanation of high social mobility as being merely from economic and population growth is pretty laughable. The US in general usually has high economic growth and more population growth than Western Europe or Japan, for example, and yet social mobility here is definitely lower and inequality is worse.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#95

Post by lern_too_spel »

jeffdavis wrote: post #92

In other words, the left and the right are both wrong. The left is wrong because it focuses too much on money and entitlements rather than real help. It also uses big government only, which crowds out local solutions, churches, and NGOs. Beyond that, many on the left are actively hostile towards religion. The right is wrong because they scale back government without doing the hard work to build alternative solutions,…

You can think of the Mormon Church as a second government in Utah that levies a 10% gross income tax on nearly everyone in the state and spends a portion on welfare programs.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#96

Post by tptacek »

m-j-fox wrote: post #86

A religious organization subsumes state roles, providing social services as a way to reinforce social cohesion as well as the power structure in the religious hierarchy. The authorities dictate everything from clothing style to "volunteer" effort. Young men are exploited for their energy and lack of common sense to expand borders. Guys, am I talking about the Latter-Day Saints or ISIS? I'll bet you a beer that Megan…

McArdle wasn't raised in the Mormon church.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#97

Post by m-j-fox »

dang wrote: post #87
m-j-fox wrote: post #86

A religious organization subsumes state roles, providing social services as a way to reinforce social cohesion as well as the power structure in the religious hierarchy. The authorities dictate everything from clothing style to "volunteer" effort. Young men are exploited for their energy and lack of common sense to expand borders. Guys, am I talking about the Latter-Day Saints or ISIS? I'll bet you a beer that Megan…

Religious flamewars are not welcome on Hacker News. We ban accounts that do this.

Fine. I replaced the word cult with religion. Same difference.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#98

Post by m-j-fox »

tptacek wrote: post #96
m-j-fox wrote: post #86

A religious organization subsumes state roles, providing social services as a way to reinforce social cohesion as well as the power structure in the religious hierarchy. The authorities dictate everything from clothing style to "volunteer" effort. Young men are exploited for their energy and lack of common sense to expand borders. Guys, am I talking about the Latter-Day Saints or ISIS? I'll bet you a beer that Megan…

McArdle wasn't raised in the Mormon church.

So she married in? I guess I owe you a beer.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#99

Post by davidf18 »

valuearb wrote: post #80
davidf18 wrote: post #4

The $20K per year per pupil that NYC (and other large cities) spends is skewed because of the enormous costs of special education. I don't know the numbers for NYC, but from an article I saw about Philly: cost to educate non-special need child: $10K, moderately special need: (7% of students) $20K, severe special need: (another 7% of students) $40K. I suspect Salt Lake City has a much lower amount of special needs stu…

Special education is a self perpetuating bureaucracy everywhere. Not to say the programs don't offer super valuable services to those in need, but my experience is it's really hard to get your kids out of special ed when they are ready to mainstream. In my daughters case they fought us for two years, we eventually moved her to a charter school that mainstreamed her immediately. 2 years later she's made the honor roll…

> "2 years later she's made the honor roll twice."

:-)

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#100

Post by TulliusCicero »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #95
jeffdavis wrote: post #92

In other words, the left and the right are both wrong. The left is wrong because it focuses too much on money and entitlements rather than real help. It also uses big government only, which crowds out local solutions, churches, and NGOs. Beyond that, many on the left are actively hostile towards religion. The right is wrong because they scale back government without doing the hard work to build alternative solutions,…

You can think of the Mormon Church as a second government in Utah that levies a 10% gross income tax on nearly everyone in the state and spends a portion on welfare programs.

While a majority of Utah is technically Mormon, only like half of those are active in the church. So in practice, you're probably looking at like 30% of households paying tithing.
Post reply on HN