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Thousands of California soldiers forced to repay enlistment bonuses

latimes.com

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Re: Thousands of California soldiers forced to repay enlistment bonuses

#91

Post by tedunangst »

startling wrote: post #85
tedunangst wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the amount, they can probably determine what kind of bonus it was (special forces, radio operator, etc.) and then determine if he was eligible for any of those bonuses.

...except the whole problem is that they overpaid bonuses.

Yeah. They gave the radio operator bonus to the cook (as an example). It's easy to see from the amount it was the radio bonus, and it's easy to see from the service record somebody was a cook, and that was bonus was overpaid. And now they want their money back (which is pretty shitty, given the circumstances). But the amounts of the correct bonus and the given bonus are not unknowable. These aren't bespoke contracts, every one unique.

Re: Thousands of California soldiers forced to repay enlistment bonuses

#92

Post by CaptSpify »

beambot wrote: post #83
rileymat2 wrote: post #16

"Robert D’Andrea, a retired Army major and Iraq veteran, was told to return a $20,000 bonus he received in 2008 because auditors could not find a copy of the contract he says he signed." How is this possible? If private businesses could do this, it would be mayhem.

That sounds like a scam. If the collecting agent can't find proper documentation, then there is no indebtedness. I would wait until they served you papers, then get any sane judge to throw out all charges. If they send it to collections then go at them with full might of consumer and labor protections.

Would this be through a civilian court? Or a military court?

Re: Thousands of California soldiers forced to repay enlistment bonuses

#93

Post by brbsix »

dlp211 wrote: post #43
mnem wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they decide when they enlist to go kill people when told to.

Hardly, the vast majority of jobs in the US Army are non-combat. You shouldn't paint with such a broad brush, many who serve do so out of a sense of duty to the nation, to escape a bad situation including poverty or get out of a dying town, and/or to gain access to higher education through the use of tuition assistance and GI Bill programs.

Many people also turn to crime in an attempt to escape poverty or a dying town. Certainly we can have empathy for desperate people making difficult decisions, but it doesn't absolve them of moral agency or place them above scrutiny.

Re: Thousands of California soldiers forced to repay enlistment bonuses

#94

Post by jcranmer »

cameldrv wrote: post #71
apsec112 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Syrian war, especially given Russia's involvement is almost certainly about securing passage for natural gas pipelines." Do you have a cite for that? No one on any side is building pipelines in Syria anytime soon, because, well, war. Also, pretty sure if I told Suheil al-Hassan or Abu Mohammad al-Julani they were fighting for natural gas pipelines, they'd knock my teeth out.

I have no idea if or how much this factors in, or even if it's true, but the story I've heard is that several years back, there was a plan for a pipeline that would go from Qatar and Saudi Arabia through Jordan, Syria, and Turkey to Europe. This would be a significant economic threat to Russia, since gas exports are about $25 billion/yr, about 2% of Russia's GDP, and a big source of hard currency, but also important…

The main Russian alternative pipeline I'm aware of is Nabucco, which would be from Iraq, Azerbaijan, and Turkmenistan via Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Austria and Germany. I've not been aware of any pipeline projects from Qatar and Saudi Arabia--their natural gas is exported mostly via LNG. Considering that, unlike oil, natural gas prices are not priced equally around the world, and that the price for natural gas is much, much higher in Asia than elsewhere (Europe is about 20% the price of Asia and the US about a third to a half that of Europe (yay fracking!)), it's much more profitable for them to export to Asia.

Edit: After doing some research, I did find that there was a proposal for a Qatar-Turkey pipeline in 2010 (see https://web.archive.org/web/20120228125310/http://pipelinesi... ). It was proposed to connect to Nabucco, which hasn't been built. The articles that link the Syrian civil war, or more specifically Qatari involvement in said war, contend that Qatar wants a Muslim Brotherhood government to build the pipeline, which ignores Saudi coolness to the idea of the pipeline (Saudi Arabia also funds rebels in the civil war) and the fact that Qatar also funded the uprisings in Libya and Egypt, in the path of no contended pipeline.

In other words, the idea that the Syrian civil war is mostly about gas pipelines looks rather like people trying to find some resource that the war must be about because they can't believe war is about anything other than resources.

Re: Thousands of California soldiers forced to repay enlistment bonuses

#95

Post by mg231962 »

If there was no contract how and why did they receive the monies.they joined right,there entitled to what they receive from the recruiters legally and not have to pay it back. Make the recruiters pay out of pocket for there corruption and lies to the soldiers!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Thousands of California soldiers forced to repay enlistment bonuses

#96

Post by jcbeard »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #54
dogma1138 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised that this is somehow even passed the slightest political oversight. You need to be a special kind of bastard to ask some one who willingly signed up to get shot at while defending their country to pay back any amount of money they got paid for doing so. Wars aren't pretty, regardless of what you think about them, and especially about Iraq and Afghanistan never ever take it out on the soldiers, they are…

I wouldn't blame someone who got drafted, but it is reasonable to fault someone for joining a volunteer army of a militarily aggressive nation. If you sign up to become a fire-fighter or paramedic, you will never be in a position where the machine you are a piece of requires / encourages you to kill people who don't need killing. The fact is that there are parts of war / military life that are more exciting than bein…

Sometimes you don't have a choice, as you so blithely put it. Many people join the military because they would otherwise have no other career, or because they need a leg up, or health insurance (pre-affordable care act). So if someone offered you an extra years salary that would allow you to put your kids through college for doing something that you feel serves the people of your country, wouldn't you take it? How about if your kid had cancer, and you and your wife after working 3 jobs couldn't make a dent in the 150K medical debt created through our medical industrial complex? Wouldn't you take a change at giving your family a better life if you had no other way to do so? Not sure where you're getting the idea of "combat tourism," but please be my guest and sign up...enjoy!

Re: Thousands of California soldiers forced to repay enlistment bonuses

#97

Post by jcbeard »

brbsix wrote: post #93
dlp211 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly, the vast majority of jobs in the US Army are non-combat. You shouldn't paint with such a broad brush, many who serve do so out of a sense of duty to the nation, to escape a bad situation including poverty or get out of a dying town, and/or to gain access to higher education through the use of tuition assistance and GI Bill programs.

Many people also turn to crime in an attempt to escape poverty or a dying town. Certainly we can have empathy for desperate people making difficult decisions, but it doesn't absolve them of moral agency or place them above scrutiny.

moral agency? scrutiny? these Soldiers were likely lied to by recruiters desperate to increase recruiting numbers in the longest war the US has fought. I suspect the churn in personnel was enormous, and the pressure was on. Sure, likely the details were buried somewhere in 30 pages of paperwork that each Soldier signed...and likely would have been caught if there were a lawyer looking of it. But these Soldiers don't have lawyers when signing up typically. I guess re-enlistees could have consulted JAG, however this isn't the norm. Recruiters are usually trusted. Somebody in the recruiting chain of command should have been been monitoring the numbers. They're the ones who should be at fault, not the Soldiers who've already served in good faith based on promises that weren't supposed to have been made.

Re: Thousands of California soldiers forced to repay enlistment bonuses

#98

Post by alasdair_ »

paulddraper wrote: post #81
rileymat2 wrote: post #16

"Robert D’Andrea, a retired Army major and Iraq veteran, was told to return a $20,000 bonus he received in 2008 because auditors could not find a copy of the contract he says he signed." How is this possible? If private businesses could do this, it would be mayhem.

"Hm, we were reviewing decade old records and we make a mistake by overpaying you by tens of thousands. Give it back." What employers are legally able to get away with this?

In the US, employers that overpay you can absolutely demand it back - it's also usually covered directly in your employment contract if you have one.

Now, a decade later may be too late (and looks terrible) but it's certainly possible for shorter time periods.

Re: Thousands of California soldiers forced to repay enlistment bonuses

#99

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

marktangotango wrote: post #90
apsec112 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you go into more detail? I'm not trying to dispute what you say, but as someone who's never been in the military, I'm curious what kind of trouble soldiers are likely to run into.

Note he's talking specifically about active duty Army, not necessarily any other branch. I can relate a story as an example. I was enlisted in the late 90's and stationed Germany. I had a POV (personal vehicle) that I had to license/register. I had to drive to a neighboring facility to get to the license office. The office was closed, for some stupid reason (they where short staffed, and someone was out sick). The Ar…

I was actually a reservist :) And I'm a she not he :D
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