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The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

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Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#91
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there is a huge difference between 'intuition about conversation' and 'intuition about the state of reality'. The former is not tied to rationality as much as practice at fighting through obtuse language. The latter is much closer to telling you whether people are thinking rationally by default. Compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12524799 this comment, where the kids already know which pile has more can…

Interesting experiment. Based on thaumasiotes' description, I don't see any problem with the experimental design, only with the conclusion drawn from it. Something changed between the younger and older kids' ability to understand the question that was asked, and that in and of itself is interesting. I object to the characterization of these experiments as "communicating badly" or relying on "obtuse language". The que…

There are interesting things you can ask about why people would understand or not understand a question.

But if they don't understand it, you can't conclude anything at all about whether they know the answer.

It doesn't matter if a question is formatted in a "straightforward" way. Nothing is very straightforward to a small child, and in normal conversation "A or A^B" is usually a mistake.

Honestly, people say things they don't mean all the time. A literal interpretation of conversation has a lot of potential to hurt you. It's also irrational. The rational goal is to figure out the most likely intended meaning(s). It's not to figure out what the meaning would be in a counterfactual world where people use language in a more logical way.

> There exist people who can consistently pick the correct answer in all of these experiments, no matter how the question is worded. And there exist people who will get it wrong unless the question is worded perfectly. Who is more rational?

If people figured out that the experimenter was asking a nonsensical and purely logical question, then that's a valuable skill. But it's not really connected to whether they are generally rational or irrational. It's also not connected to whether they understand basic probability.

> Who is better at grasping "the state of reality", as you put it?

In this experiment, you can't tell. When it comes to the probabilities about Linda, people's understanding is a total mystery if they didn't know what the question wanted.

You can figure out how they interpret questions on one axis, but you would need other tests to figure out why. They might be more rational, or they might be more literal, even to an irrational level.

> Who would you rather have on your team at work?

Depends on why they got the answer right.

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#92
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting experiment. Based on thaumasiotes' description, I don't see any problem with the experimental design, only with the conclusion drawn from it. Something changed between the younger and older kids' ability to understand the question that was asked, and that in and of itself is interesting. I object to the characterization of these experiments as "communicating badly" or relying on "obtuse language". The que…

There are interesting things you can ask about why people would understand or not understand a question. But if they don't understand it, you can't conclude anything at all about whether they know the answer. It doesn't matter if a question is formatted in a "straightforward" way. Nothing is very straightforward to a small child, and in normal conversation "A or A^B" is usually a mistake. Honestly, people say things…

I think we disagree on two big things, and the rest is fluff.

First, I still don't think it's fair to characterize the questions ("which is more likely" and "which has more M&Ms") as "nonsensical and purely logical." I wouldn't even call the questions atypical. We contend with simple questions like this all the time in society. The intent behind both questions is unambiguous, and there are no reasonable alternative interpretations, unless you assume the question asker is simply mistaken.

Second, we're on different pages about what the experiment is evaluating. I don't claim that the people who answer incorrectly are less capable of rationality, nor that they don't understand probability. What I believe is that they are less likely to recognize when it's best to apply their logical toolset. As a result, they're more likely to use intuition to answer questions that are best answered via careful analysis. This appears exactly like failing to understand the question itself.

To wit: The younger kids used the length of the line to answer "which has more M&Ms", but the older kids immediately recognized that it's better to use a more in-depth analytical tool: counting. I hypothesize that the younger kids are simply not as good (yet) at knowing when to apply this tool. Intuition is easier and less effortful, thus it's the default unless we make ourselves think harder. This pattern extends to adults, too. How many people think we should be tougher on crime because it "feels" like there is more violence today than ever before, yet don't even consider that they need to look at some actual numbers to justify this conclusion?

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#93
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are interesting things you can ask about why people would understand or not understand a question. But if they don't understand it, you can't conclude anything at all about whether they know the answer. It doesn't matter if a question is formatted in a "straightforward" way. Nothing is very straightforward to a small child, and in normal conversation "A or A^B" is usually a mistake. Honestly, people say things…

I think we disagree on two big things, and the rest is fluff. First, I still don't think it's fair to characterize the questions ("which is more likely" and "which has more M&Ms") as "nonsensical and purely logical." I wouldn't even call the questions atypical. We contend with simple questions like this all the time in society. The intent behind both questions is unambiguous, and there are no reasonable alternative i…

It's specifically a question of "which is more likely, A or A^B" that is weird. The typical "which is more likely" has non-overlapping categories. It doesn't even need to be a mistake. If I ask whether you want a sandwich or a burger, it's obvious that 'sandwich' actually means 'non-burger sandwich'.

I'm claiming that they are not using intuition instead of analysis. Or at least, you can't tell that from their answers. There are logical reasons to interpret the question as non-overlapping sets. They could be performing a very careful analysis and still pick the second option.

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$3.6 trillion is only a portion of just the materials cost. It's like the price of lumber, as compared to the total cost of building a house. Elon chose that particular spot because the economic of solar is geography dependent. The infrastructure costs of distributing 100% solar will be astronomical. I think you could pat yourself on the back if you figured out how to make it work for only 20x the cost of just the pa…

> In 2010, the U.S. Energy Information Administration estimated total captial costs for nuclear power at $5.4k per kW. Matches what I found here: http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/capitalcost/xls/table1.xls (5.530$/kW) (page with full report here: http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/capitalcost/ , release date 2013) Thing is that it is literally more expensive than photovoltaic at around 4k$/kW (same source). Even the Operation…

Thanks for the additional info.

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#95
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we disagree on two big things, and the rest is fluff. First, I still don't think it's fair to characterize the questions ("which is more likely" and "which has more M&Ms") as "nonsensical and purely logical." I wouldn't even call the questions atypical. We contend with simple questions like this all the time in society. The intent behind both questions is unambiguous, and there are no reasonable alternative i…

It's specifically a question of "which is more likely, A or A^B" that is weird. The typical "which is more likely" has non-overlapping categories. It doesn't even need to be a mistake. If I ask whether you want a sandwich or a burger, it's obvious that 'sandwich' actually means 'non-burger sandwich'. I'm claiming that they are not using intuition instead of analysis. Or at least, you can't tell that from their answer…

I only disagree with your last sentence. There's no way to perform a careful analysis of option A vs option A+B while maintaining the assumption that they are non-overlapping sets. Simply reading the answers proves that assumption wrong. Thus, it seems way more likely that the explanation is a lack of thinking/analysis... i.e. intuition. People are answering the question they expect instead of the question that's in front of them, because that's easier: http://lesswrong.com/lw/9l3/the_substitution_principle

But you are right, we can't know that from their answers alone. There are numerous possible reasons for picking the wrong answer, so further experimentation is required if we really want to know why.

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#96
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "mylenic sheaths form around our neurons and abstracting concepts" Roll me one while you are at it

That is not how that "and" works. 'Mylenic sheaths form around our neurons. -and- Abstracting concepts becomes more challenging.'

The "and" wasn't the point.

I don't see much in the literature regarding retardation of abstract thought due to the formation of myelin.

Quite the opposite.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myelin

"Myelin is a fatty white substance that surrounds the axon of some nerve cells, forming an electrically insulating layer. It is essential for the proper functioning of the nervous system."

Further

"Myelination continues through the adolescent stage of life."

And finally

"The main purpose of a myelin layer (or sheath) is to increase the speed at which impulses propagate along the myelinated fiber"

I'd say myelin is a pretty good thing.

Pat Wolfe, in "Brain Matters: Translating Research into Classroom", goes on...

https://books.google.nl/books?id=BzccMxS56LAC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA...

"Neurons in the frontal lobe receive a myelin sheath late in development, as evidenced by the increased ability of children to engage in higher-level and more abstract thinking."

I'm really stretching to understand how to interpret the conjunctive here

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#97
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not how that "and" works. 'Mylenic sheaths form around our neurons. -and- Abstracting concepts becomes more challenging.'

Ty

Maybe I missed your point, but as far as I am aware myelination is a very good thing.

Re: The Difference Between Rationality and Intelligence

#98
post #97
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ty

Maybe I missed your point, but as far as I am aware myelination is a very good thing.

Mylenation is a double edged sword. We see in judo subjects the dramatic increase in reflexes and competetive advantage after substantial practice. On the other hand similar repetition in other areas can lead to difficulty construing other pathways. I also believe mylenation is responsible for the gradual decrease in appreciation of ones favourite songs.

In other words it can make things faster, but limit capacity for change and reduce broader neurological firing.

Sorry I haven't explained it very well - on the run with a phone.

I would strongly encourage a read of Pocket Guide To Interpersonal Neurobiology by Daniel Siegel, who touches on the neurobiology and broader aspects of the impact in an accessible narrative.

The kernel of what I seem to recall driving my original comment was that mylenation occurs at deep levels, during what we call the formative years, but if not adequately developed people can be or become susceptible to various negative psychological traits such as addiction, susceptibility to brainwashing, poor decision making, lack of critical thinking. As Max Planck put it - people don't change their mind to accept an idea, rather people die and everyone that's left just accepts the idea as true. A large part of what he was getting at is, I believe, a direct consequence of mylenation - namely the formation of faster but hard to change pathways in the brain.

I hope that explanation helps.

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