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Startup employees don't earn more

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Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#91

Post by aetherson »

slykat wrote: post #72
cj wrote: post #15

If your #1 job criteria is compensation, do not work at a startup. You'll be paid more at big companies. If you don't mind being paid a little less, and want the opportunity to be a part of building a company from the ground up, consider working at a startup. There will be a lot more ups and downs than at a company like Google. But at smaller companies, you'll have the chance to have a material impact on the success…

I'm going to have to disagree that you are "a paid a little less" at startups. In my experience working for a startup is a 20-30% drop in compensation. When startups say they are near market, they mean base salaries. They neglect bonuses, stock grants, signing bonuses, stock refreshes, 401K matching. These things add up real quickly. Even worse, I've found that startup salaries usually don't grow as large companies (…

My career has involved working at an e-healthcare startup (like 25 people), then NetSuite pre and post IPO (probably no longer a startup), then a tiny startup that folded after 6 months, then a 20 person startup, then a 60 person startup.

So 4 definitely honest-to-god startups, and one post-startup. The only one I didn't get raises and equity refreshes at was the tiny startup that folded after six months -- because it didn't exist long enough to have a compensation cycle.

I don't think this was exceptional. I very much take exception to "very few" startups doing equity refreshes, raises, etc. Some may not. Most do.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#92

Post by brianwawok »

ux-app wrote: post #51
Retric wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is once your making ~80k extra money does not make a big difference assuming your single. Until you hit an extra ~2,000k which let's you stop working. I take the opposite approach where a low stress 40 hour a week job can be pleasant. I have a minimal commute and spend less than 1/3 of my waking life at work or getting there. Further I mostly enjoy my time there. I did the high pay high stress job and it's j…

> is ~19% of your time. Let's not count the 8 hours you sleep. That gives us 8 hours out of 16 spent working. Also your employer isn't paying you for your commute let's count that at 1 hour per day this comes out to 9 hours /16 @ 5 days per week 45 hours out of 112 waking hours in a week spent working (and commuting). That's if you're lucky enough to work at a place that allows you to leave after "only" 8 hours worke…

Hah but what is the flip side? You can give no hours to work and be stuck in a park bench. You get more prime hours, but is your quality of life better?

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#93

Post by hueving »

taytus wrote: post #46
exstudent2 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$1 million is practically nothing as far as startup funding goes. Especially in the Bay Area. That's basically a year to find product market fit and raise another round. No offense but you don't sound like you have enough experience to be commenting on our industry as a whole.

In USA and in the rest of the world, $1 million dollars is a shit ton of money. Full stop. Please, let's go back to reality.

Not to any business that has to pay the salaries of 10+ people.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#94

Post by toomuchtodo »

brianwawok wrote: post #92
ux-app wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is ~19% of your time. Let's not count the 8 hours you sleep. That gives us 8 hours out of 16 spent working. Also your employer isn't paying you for your commute let's count that at 1 hour per day this comes out to 9 hours /16 @ 5 days per week 45 hours out of 112 waking hours in a week spent working (and commuting). That's if you're lucky enough to work at a place that allows you to leave after "only" 8 hours worke…

Hah but what is the flip side? You can give no hours to work and be stuck in a park bench. You get more prime hours, but is your quality of life better?

A good used sail boat is about $60k. You can live very well on it for about $15k/year. That's not a park bench; that's freedom, which is priceless.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#95

Post by rev_bird »

taytus wrote: post #46
exstudent2 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$1 million is practically nothing as far as startup funding goes. Especially in the Bay Area. That's basically a year to find product market fit and raise another round. No offense but you don't sound like you have enough experience to be commenting on our industry as a whole.

In USA and in the rest of the world, $1 million dollars is a shit ton of money. Full stop. Please, let's go back to reality.

It's a shit ton of money for one person. For a business, especially a business without revenue, it seems like far less.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#96

Post by jackcosgrove »

bbcbasic wrote: post #49
bunkydoo wrote: post #24

I'm gonna be straight with y'all, I earn more as a post office mail carrier than I ever did as a programmer for a silicon valley startup with $1 million dollars seed funding. I also surprisingly have more freedom even though I work basically like a slave. Nobody wants to admit it but we are in a tech bubble. Sure, if you are in the right startup things might be different. I had a great valley experience - but it was…

Is there any chance of a systemic failure that would affect the entire economy caused by Silicon Valley? I am not talking about some shares losing value but with the Credit Crunch, we had thousands of average Joes in above their head in debt which couldn't be refinanced while the value of their home crashed.

Silicon Valley is not like Wall Street in that way. If quantum computing breaks public key encryption the world is in deep doo-doo though.

It is like Wall Street back in the 00s in that it attracts greedy people as well as people in it for the love of it. I predict the greedy people will ruin this iteration of Silicon Valley, if they haven't already.

It also has a savior complex that is convinced Silicon Valley is "doing God's work". In other words drinking the Kool-Aid. "Do well by doing good" is a bit self-serving to me. It's a big warning sign when an industry constructs a mythology around itself. First, it's used as a psychological reward for employees that allows employers to suppress wages. Second, like any moral framework it makes ends-justifies-the-means rationalization easier.

It's just commerce! Get over it.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#97

Post by Hytosys »

segmondy wrote: post #54
bunkydoo wrote: post #24

I'm gonna be straight with y'all, I earn more as a post office mail carrier than I ever did as a programmer for a silicon valley startup with $1 million dollars seed funding. I also surprisingly have more freedom even though I work basically like a slave. Nobody wants to admit it but we are in a tech bubble. Sure, if you are in the right startup things might be different. I had a great valley experience - but it was…

Wow, someone gives a company $1million and you claim that the person is playing with dreams, time and skills? Give us a break. No startup has to accept investor money. If you don't want their million, don't take it. Bootstrap with your own cash. The reality is that going into startup for money is a big risk, it's a big gamble. Go in for the fun, go in to learn new things, play with new tech, go in to avoid ( big comp…

You sound like an employee who thinks they're an employer.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#98

Post by jwatte »

thoman23 wrote: post #6
susan_hall wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"not 20% more but possibly 1000% more" -- you are implying that the median startup employee makes less but it is worth it because of the big payoff for the lucky ones. That is, you imply that the median might be lower, but the average pay is higher. But that is not what the article is saying. The article is saying that average payoff is lower. In other words, being a startup employee is irrational the same way the lo…

Both the lottery and working at a startup are rational bets if you believe the value of money is non linear.

Or if you're looking for variance rather than mean. You can't beat the beta of a lottery ticket!

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#99

Post by mchaver »

cj wrote: post #15

If your #1 job criteria is compensation, do not work at a startup. You'll be paid more at big companies. If you don't mind being paid a little less, and want the opportunity to be a part of building a company from the ground up, consider working at a startup. There will be a lot more ups and downs than at a company like Google. But at smaller companies, you'll have the chance to have a material impact on the success…

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Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#100

Post by jwatte »

rlanday wrote: post #7
thoman23 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the lottery and working at a startup are rational bets if you believe the value of money is non linear.

No, many people believe the value of money in non-linear but most of those people believe that the marginal utility of each additional dollars diminishes as your wealth increases, rather than increasing. I.e. even if you might earn more money on average at a startup (which the article claims isn’t the case), it still wouldn’t be worth it because it’s better to earn a decent salary from a big company with high probabi…

With $1M net worth (expect $40k/year annuity,) you'd have to live frugally to be truly independent, especially of you have a family. With $5M net worth, you could live well, independently.

A 9-5 is unlikely to let you save $1M, much less $5M, unless you're high level in a big company. If you're very early in a big success, you can get there.

However, in many ways, employee 15 and up is the worst of both worlds. Small stock grant, sub market salary and benefits.

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