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Startup employees don't earn more

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11–20 of 162 posts

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#11
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like the lottery, except you can influence your odds a bit more.

It would be interesting to see what the expected outcome's distribution is with buying lottery tickets for $X/month vs. doing a startup (and potentially earn less by $X/month than one could have had at a larger corporation).

Interesting. If I spent 20% of my salary on lottery tickets, how good would my chances be of winning vs cashing in my stock at a startup that goes public in which I made 20% less salary? And what would the payout differences be?

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#12
post #7
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the lottery and working at a startup are rational bets if you believe the value of money is non linear.

No, many people believe the value of money in non-linear but most of those people believe that the marginal utility of each additional dollars diminishes as your wealth increases, rather than increasing. I.e. even if you might earn more money on average at a startup (which the article claims isn’t the case), it still wouldn’t be worth it because it’s better to earn a decent salary from a big company with high probabi…

Interesting that while I agree that the marginal value decreases I also feel (literally feel) that somehow having say an order of magnitude more would somehow be qualitatively different (and better). Funny to see my own biases play tricks (?) on me!

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#13
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the lottery and working at a startup are rational bets if you believe the value of money is non linear.

That depends on whether you believe it is sub-linear or super-linear. Many people treat the value of money as sub-linear (e.g. better to go from $0 to $50k, than to go from $100k to $150k). If that's the case, then the riskier, lottery style model would not be rational if money is the only value in working for a startup. However, most startup employees I know make the choice for more than just the direct monetary rew…

The idea is once your making ~80k extra money does not make a big difference assuming your single. Until you hit an extra ~2,000k which let's you stop working.

I take the opposite approach where a low stress 40 hour a week job can be pleasant. I have a minimal commute and spend less than 1/3 of my waking life at work or getting there. Further I mostly enjoy my time there. I did the high pay high stress job and it's just not worth it, but taking a year off showed that's not so interesting either.

Live to be 70 and a 40 hour week to a normal retirement is ~19% of your time. As long as it's not bad there are just other thing to focus on.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#14
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, many people believe the value of money in non-linear but most of those people believe that the marginal utility of each additional dollars diminishes as your wealth increases, rather than increasing. I.e. even if you might earn more money on average at a startup (which the article claims isn’t the case), it still wouldn’t be worth it because it’s better to earn a decent salary from a big company with high probabi…

Interesting that while I agree that the marginal value decreases I also feel (literally feel ) that somehow having say an order of magnitude more would somehow be qualitatively different (and better). Funny to see my own biases play tricks (?) on me!

Paradoxically, I think that you feel that way _because_ of the decreasing marginal value of money. Superfluous income is disposable income, and spending money in a way entirely of your choosing is pleasurable.

Especially if you're already making enough to get by, the value of the money you're already making is "priced in" to your subconscious analysis. Thus, the next order of magnitude of income really is qualitatively different.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#15
If your #1 job criteria is compensation, do not work at a startup. You'll be paid more at big companies.

If you don't mind being paid a little less, and want the opportunity to be a part of building a company from the ground up, consider working at a startup. There will be a lot more ups and downs than at a company like Google. But at smaller companies, you'll have the chance to have a material impact on the success of the organization instead of being just a cog in the wheel.

By no means am I saying you should accept a below market offer from a sketchy startup that offers no benefits and expects 12 hour work days (those unfortunately exist).

Disclaimer: I run a 6-person seed-stage company. To help keep our employees happy (and to be competitive with bigger companies when recruiting), we try to get as close as possible to big-company salaries, we don't expect anything beyond 40 hrs / week, 100% paid health benefits, 401k, 25 paid days off per year, snacks, food, full financial transparency, etc. (Not trying to self-promote here, mainly trying to communicate that not all small companies are bad just because they're small).

Also consider that the day-to-day work at startup is dramatically different than the day-to-day work at a big company. For people who don't mind being paid low $100k's instead of mid $100k's, the day-to-day work should be the main deciding factor when considering startup vs. large co. In my opinion, startups are more fun, you get to wear more hats since your role is likely less specialized, (ideally) there's less politics, you can have a real impact on the success of the business while (hopefully) watching it grow, and learn a lot really fast along the way.

That said, the big company route definitely offers higher compensation and more stability, and makes a lot of sense for people who are a little more risk-averse.

Also +1 on viewing equity as a lottery ticket. When evaluating offers from a startup, try to maximize your equity in negotiations (ie. more lottery tickets), but the fact is the majority of startups will eventually shut down, so don't use equity as a major factor when comparing offers between large and small companies.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#16
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, many people believe the value of money in non-linear but most of those people believe that the marginal utility of each additional dollars diminishes as your wealth increases, rather than increasing. I.e. even if you might earn more money on average at a startup (which the article claims isn’t the case), it still wouldn’t be worth it because it’s better to earn a decent salary from a big company with high probabi…

Interesting that while I agree that the marginal value decreases I also feel (literally feel ) that somehow having say an order of magnitude more would somehow be qualitatively different (and better). Funny to see my own biases play tricks (?) on me!

I think one could define a metric in which average result is higher for startup employees than for BigCo employees.

Someone with $100M has access to politics/investments/etc that most people earning $250k/yr don't. So while the average monetary payout is smaller (1% chance at $100M is equal to a 50% chance at 2M), average social currency is much higher. (1% chance at the social power that comes with $100M vs 0% chance in the BigCo job).

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#17
As others have posted, people don't go to small startups to earn more on average.

They're not looking at the average or median, they're looking at the 99%ile numbers, because they think the startup they picked has an angle or advantage, giving it a shot at a 99%ile exit.

80000hours' audience is clever enough to understand cumulative distribution functions or even just correlated sets of [25%ile, median, 75%ile, 90%ile, 99%ile] numbers.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#18
It's easier to get hired at an early stage startup because there are fewer hoops to jump through. You can then use that startup to build industry connections and get your next job via inside track referral through someone you know at a bigger / more established company.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#19

This will surprise nobody on Hacker News. The allure of startups isn't a guaranteed 20% more than a regular company's salary; it's the possibility of 1000% more.

It's like the lottery, except you can influence your odds a bit more.

And you're (hopefully) working on something more interesting and more self-directed than you might at a typical job.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#20
post #7
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the lottery and working at a startup are rational bets if you believe the value of money is non linear.

No, many people believe the value of money in non-linear but most of those people believe that the marginal utility of each additional dollars diminishes as your wealth increases, rather than increasing. I.e. even if you might earn more money on average at a startup (which the article claims isn’t the case), it still wouldn’t be worth it because it’s better to earn a decent salary from a big company with high probabi…

I also believe that the marginal utility of additional dollars decreases, but I prefer the startup value prop for me. My personal calculation is something like this, where "value" is some personal average of marginal utility:

Big co: $50k extra from $100k -> $150k = $50k * 1 value / dollar * 100% = 50k value

Startup: $10M extra from $100k -> $10M = $10M * 0.25 value / dollar = 2.5M value * 5% chance of success = 125k value

There's also the intangible value of having hope for big success.

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