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Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

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Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#91

Post by vmorgulis »

A possible future is a mankind that limit its growth like a fish in an aquarium.

Another one I've a heard is a mankind whose the objective is the interstellar travel. Man would be an artefact of life to propagate itself across the universe.

About science and technology, Marx says they are consequences of sedentarization of the man. With agriculture, man had surplus of food and discovered trade, money and finally capitalism.

In Civilization the player begins as a nomad tribe and needs a good place to build its empire :-)

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#92

Post by ideonexus »

bko wrote: post #56

World Bank estimates that global poverty fell to less than 10% for the first time in history [0]. Perhaps this wasn't solely caused by capitalism and globalization, but considering those two idea were probably the driving forces of the last century, I believe they are instrumental in reducing global poverty. I just don't buy the argument that absolute livings standards have always been increasing due to capitalism bu…

> eventually when we get to a certain point it will all turn into disaster.

William F. Buckley liked to quote a friend that, "The problem with socialism is socialism. The problem with capitalism is capitalists." Socialism is the force meant to keep capitalists from becoming the totalitarian rulers of us all. The responsibility of voters in a democracy is to keep the forces of capitalism and socialism in check so that neither one dominates us and brings on disaster.

Understanding this fact that America and all other functioning democracies are a balance of socialism and capitalism has made me realize I am a Noam Chomsky-style anarchist. He observes that one cannot be an anarchist without also being a tempered socialist, because without some socialism to constrain the capitalists, they would quickly oppress us all in a tragedy-of-the-commons scenario [1].

[1] https://chomsky.info/state01/

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#93

Post by arethuza »

cbeach wrote: post #52
arethuza wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that a "new possibility" would be acknowledging that a 100% capitalist society (whatever that would look like) is about as sensible as a 100% socialist society. I don't want to buy food from a state controlled organisation because they'd be crap at it. However, I'm not keen on healthcare being provisioned individually and privately or relying entirely on the market for policing or national security.

That's the "dilute form of communism" I was referring to. Socialism is not a "new possibility." I concede, though, that nationalised health and defence has major benefits.

My extremely humble suggestion is merely that acknowledging that a "free market/capitalistic" approach works best for many things and a "collective/socialistic" approach works for other things and stop pretending that its all of one or all of the other.

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#94

Post by golemotron »

dmichulke wrote: post #73
asift wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed. When you start with ridiculous premises, you're going to reach ridiculous conclusions.

In parent's defense, I believe that needs are endless and there is always a tiny motion that can be rationalized away or a shiny item that can be obtained before the others get it (think iphone a decade back). Unless we reach the singularity, there will always be the need for something. And if you think of needs as something as abstract as "power over the universe" (which is still a limited resource, even after the s…

I think you're right and as long as the discussion is about inequality rather than poverty there won't be a solution.

Inequality will always be with us because humans compete. If they don't compete directly economically they compete for social status.

Providing a base level of food, shelter, and medical assistance is achievable. I just don't think it will be enough when envy is factored in.

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#95

Post by [deleted] »

wcummings wrote: post #60
arbuge wrote: post #2

With all due respect to Stephen Hawking, whose expertise in theoretical physics is undoubted, how would he be in a position to "confirm" this?

He's in his "telling other fields they're wrong about everything phrase" http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2556

[deleted]

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#96

Post by mtgx »

Houshalter wrote: post #13

Hawking does believe that AI will be a danger to humanity long term. The short term problems caused by near future robots is a different subject. Capitalism isn't inherently the problem. We could have capitalism and tax capital owners at a high rate, and distribute the wealth much more evenly. It's possible everyone could become capital owners and it would be normal to live off interest instead of work. Like owning t…

Capitalism isn't a problem per se. It's only a problem when those at the top of a capitalistic society make it so the people's representatives no longer represent the people, but themselves.

If the people were actually vigilant, and didn't let this happen, as it already has happened in the US, then they wouldn't legalize bribery, and they would put those who give money to politician more than a small amount set in law, in prison. And it wouldn't matter whether the person giving the money is a small business owner or the CEO of Exxon. Both would go to prison for the same amount of time.

If the societies were that just and the representatives actually followed the people's will like that, then capitalism would be wonderful!

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#97

Post by PavlovsCat »

stevetrewick wrote: post #74
PavlovsCat wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean increasing life expectancy with unparalleled standard of living? Nope, I don't mean that. Are these the only two things going on in the world? Is capitalism the sole driver for these two? Just trying to get a feel for why you would guess so horribly badly. > Why would anyone want to prevent/change that? What makes you think I have to defend myself against your straw man? edit: And you know what, the fact t…

> Is capitalism the sole driver for these two? Trade (which is to say, markets) and globalisation are largely responsible for driving this. Capitalism (private ownership of the means of production) is currently the most successful model we have for facilitating these.

Here's another driver: we can't help but invent things and find out more about the world, regardless of system, and in many ways capitalism takes the credit for what goes on anyway and either way.

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#99

Post by forgottenpass »

arbuge wrote: post #2

With all due respect to Stephen Hawking, whose expertise in theoretical physics is undoubted, how would he be in a position to "confirm" this?

With all due respect to Stephen Hawking, whose expertise in theoretical physics is undoubted, how would he be in a position to "confirm" this?

Yeah, the physicist is out of his depth on capitalism. Just ask the forum full of computer nerds and wantrepreneurs!

Re: Stephen Hawking confirms: The problem is Capitalism, not robots

#100

Post by nabla9 »

bko wrote: post #56

World Bank estimates that global poverty fell to less than 10% for the first time in history [0]. Perhaps this wasn't solely caused by capitalism and globalization, but considering those two idea were probably the driving forces of the last century, I believe they are instrumental in reducing global poverty. I just don't buy the argument that absolute livings standards have always been increasing due to capitalism bu…

>That's similar to the argument that luddites have always made and they have always been wrong.

Industrial revolution resulted malnutrition and deterioration of absolute living standards. It took almost hundred years from the start of the industrial revolution before real wages started to grow. You can see it from the historical records. The height of enlisted men in Britain decreased. Luddites were mostly right. They were not fighting against technology per se btw, they were fighting against losing their jobs.

The real benefits from industrialization were realized after hard political changes were made and capitalism was limited. It was very violent struggle. People were shot or beaten. Economic history teaches us that technological changes require political changes. What you attribute as triumph of capitalism ignores the fact that capitalism changed a lot. You don't create middle class from mid 18th century society.

Summary:

capitalism + technology + political change == benefits for everyone.

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