The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools • Hacker News Board

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#91

Post by dalke » Thu, Oct 29, 2015, 12:16 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #82

dalke wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Mainstreaming", which dates became a buzzword around 1980, refers to putting special needs in the same classes as other students. It does not generally mean that everyone was on the same track. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstreaming_%28education%29 For example, this 1995 article describes how a school for the blind was closing because of the mainstreaming of blind students. https://news.google.com/news…

The number one reason is that they can fire bad teachers and require quite a lot from those they hire because they are not in the union. You are assuming it's about the curriculum it's not. It's about the environment, the parent participation etc.

Surely from my comments you saw me reference the long history of people complaining about poor parent participation, and quoted from a letter to the editor complaining about the teaching environment.

Therefore I can't see why you think I assume it's only about the curriculum.

Nor do I see how unions are relevant. Your 1960's classroom, in the cartoon that resonates so strongly with you, was almost certainly run by a union teacher, in a time when unions were much more powerful than now.

You can't decide to choose one part of history and not the other.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#92

Post by dalke » Thu, Oct 29, 2015, 12:40 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #80

dalke wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exelius made three critiques. All are valid concerns, from what I can tell from various sources. 1) As far as I know, only one school principal has broken the $500k+ barrier, and that is a charter school principal from a failed school in Florida. I do not believe this specific detail was that convincing. On the topic of graft, this is hard to pin down but it's not insignificant. See http://neatoday.org/2015/06/04/can…

His valid concerns are valid in the sense that they apply to some charter schools. They are not valid in the way he made good charter schools the exception and that was what I was reacting to. It's really that simple. Charter schools are publicly funded and privately run. If the public doesen't feel like the schools are living up to their promise they can simply stop the funding. That some schools have been taking ad…

The quality has little to do with the complaint, which concerns how the funding system is set up to prefer charter schools over public schools.

> they can simply stop the funding.

How? The school board doesn't have the authority. In many cases the state has removed local democratic control over the process. The only solution is to replace a significant portion of the state legislature, and that is no simple task.

> fundamentally a wrong premise for why public school system is failing

My premise is there's too much state and federal dabbling in what was a working system, and not enough spent on long-term social support systems. As I haven't mentioned it, I'm much more certain that you are projecting views onto me.

After, what, 15 years of testing, charter, education reforms, there's precious little success to come out of a lot of new spending. We saw that most recently in the NEAP scores, at http://edexcellence.net/articles/heartbreak-on-naep .

Out-of-school experiences, like poverty, have a more significant impact than teacher quality. The reform movement calls that an "excuse" for bad teaching. So where is the evidence that this new world of teaching is any more successful ... sorry, less of a failure ... than what we had before?

And before you say that charters have nothing to do with testing, in principle you're right. Except for all those schools with low test scores that were labeled "failing" and were shut down or converted into a privately run charter school. That difference in standards is one of Exelius's valid criticisms.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#93

Post by ThomPete » Thu, Oct 29, 2015, 1:13 AM UTC

dalke wrote: post #91

ThomPete wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number one reason is that they can fire bad teachers and require quite a lot from those they hire because they are not in the union. You are assuming it's about the curriculum it's not. It's about the environment, the parent participation etc.

Surely from my comments you saw me reference the long history of people complaining about poor parent participation, and quoted from a letter to the editor complaining about the teaching environment. Therefore I can't see why you think I assume it's only about the curriculum. Nor do I see how unions are relevant. Your 1960's classroom, in the cartoon that resonates so strongly with you, was almost certainly run by a…

The comic isn't about parent participation it's about who the parent blame for their child not doing well.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#94

Post by ThomPete » Thu, Oct 29, 2015, 1:18 AM UTC

dalke wrote: post #92

ThomPete wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His valid concerns are valid in the sense that they apply to some charter schools. They are not valid in the way he made good charter schools the exception and that was what I was reacting to. It's really that simple. Charter schools are publicly funded and privately run. If the public doesen't feel like the schools are living up to their promise they can simply stop the funding. That some schools have been taking ad…

The quality has little to do with the complaint, which concerns how the funding system is set up to prefer charter schools over public schools. > they can simply stop the funding. How? The school board doesn't have the authority. In many cases the state has removed local democratic control over the process. The only solution is to replace a significant portion of the state legislature, and that is no simple task. > f…

I think you should spend some time reading up on charther schools and see exactly how they get their funding and what they can and can't do.

If you can't be bothered start by watching the Documentary "The Lottery" and then come back and tell me that a schools methods can't make a difference.

If you are still not convinced I can certainly live with that.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#95

Post by dalke » Thu, Oct 29, 2015, 9:09 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #93

dalke wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely from my comments you saw me reference the long history of people complaining about poor parent participation, and quoted from a letter to the editor complaining about the teaching environment. Therefore I can't see why you think I assume it's only about the curriculum. Nor do I see how unions are relevant. Your 1960's classroom, in the cartoon that resonates so strongly with you, was almost certainly run by a…

The comic isn't about parent participation it's about who the parent blame for their child not doing well.

The comic is an ahistorical portrayal of truthiness. You accuse me of cherry picking, so I get to point out your own cherry picking of history, or in this case, false portrayal of history.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#96

Post by dalke » Thu, Oct 29, 2015, 9:48 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #94

dalke wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quality has little to do with the complaint, which concerns how the funding system is set up to prefer charter schools over public schools. > they can simply stop the funding. How? The school board doesn't have the authority. In many cases the state has removed local democratic control over the process. The only solution is to replace a significant portion of the state legislature, and that is no simple task. > f…

I think you should spend some time reading up on charther schools and see exactly how they get their funding and what they can and can't do. If you can't be bothered start by watching the Documentary "The Lottery" and then come back and tell me that a schools methods can't make a difference. If you are still not convinced I can certainly live with that.

I gave links to the funding situation for charter schools in two different states. I can give more if you want. I don't think you can claim that I have not spent some time reading up on where charter schools get funding.

You consistently respond by pointing to a single charter school. No one has ever claimed that there aren't some excellent charter schools. But why should I believe that Success Academy Charter Schools is characteristic of charter schools as a whole?

Of course a school's method's can make a difference on the students. There's a entire genre of movies on the topic. I mentioned "Blackboard Jungle". Another example is the turn-around at George Washington Preparatory High School, which was portrayed in the movie 'Hard Lessons'. There's "Dead Poets Society" based in part on the teaching impact of Samuel Pickering, and "Lean on Me" is based on principal Joe Clark and Eastside High School. As a New Yorker, you should well know of NYC's history with alternative schools, which includes public alternative high schools like 'The High School of Performing Arts', which was the basis for the movie 'Fame'.

But the choice of pedagogy has very little to do with the the complaints about 1) extra opportunity for graft in charter schools, 2) a general funding preference for charter schools over public schools, and 3) charter schools which are held to lower minimum standards than public schools.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#97

Post by hugh4 » Thu, Oct 29, 2015, 11:19 AM UTC

mjevans wrote: post #87

hugh4 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are an idiot, it's better to recieve an idiot- appropriate education. Less calculus and Shakespeare and more how to get a steady job, handle your finances, and stay away from trouble. It would of course suck if you just had a cold on the day of the rest and wound up in the idiot school by accident, you'd need to review performance regularly. Ideally you'd have more than three levels of schooling. Maybe five, y…

Next thing you know you'll be encouraging parents to drink more so that the correct ratio of alphas to epsilons happens.

I assure you we already have all the Epsilons we need.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#98

Post by ThomPete » Thu, Oct 29, 2015, 1:41 PM UTC

dalke wrote: post #95

ThomPete wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comic isn't about parent participation it's about who the parent blame for their child not doing well.

The comic is an ahistorical portrayal of truthiness. You accuse me of cherry picking, so I get to point out your own cherry picking of history, or in this case, false portrayal of history.

Again. What you claim is wrong about the comic is not what it's claiming.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#99

Post by ThomPete » Thu, Oct 29, 2015, 1:44 PM UTC

dalke wrote: post #96

ThomPete wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should spend some time reading up on charther schools and see exactly how they get their funding and what they can and can't do. If you can't be bothered start by watching the Documentary "The Lottery" and then come back and tell me that a schools methods can't make a difference. If you are still not convinced I can certainly live with that.

I gave links to the funding situation for charter schools in two different states. I can give more if you want. I don't think you can claim that I have not spent some time reading up on where charter schools get funding. You consistently respond by pointing to a single charter school. No one has ever claimed that there aren't some excellent charter schools. But why should I believe that Success Academy Charter School…

Those complains was based on a premise that most charter schools are like that which is what I took issue with. Again go back and read what this discussion started with. It was OP making claims about good charters beeing the exception.

1,198 charter schools in California only 6 of them are LTDs.

And yes I talk about a single charter school exactly because I don't want claim what I have no data to back up with, which is what the OP did.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#100

Post by notjoedimaggio » Thu, Oct 29, 2015, 2:19 PM UTC

wfo wrote: post #19

Shivetya wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, get off this idea we don't put enough money into education. We put too much, so much so that they ended up hiring people other than teachers and the carry forward costs are too high. You want to fix education in the US, the money must follow the student. Until the school systems themselves are forced to improve by having students want to attend they won't. The recent issue with testing which they said was…

Of course it's a money issue. We pay teachers garbage for working harder than anyone else, who wants to do that job? If you got the A-types who go into finance or law or medicine into teaching you'd see a very different scenario play out. Right now it's essentially all-volunteer. People call it "a labor of love" but a double-time job paid at part-time wages is what they mean. Teachers don't make money or have respect…

"The BLS reports the median annual salary for high school teachers was $55,360 in 2013. The best-paid 10 percent in the field made approximately $86,720, while the bottom 10 percent made $37,230. Compensation is typically based on years of experience and educational level." [0]

This ($57k) is right around the median household income in the US. Note that is per household, which may include multiple earners.

Tough to look at teacher salaries, which are above the median, and say that's garbage.

Yes, they have a tough job, balancing between students, administrators, and (especially) parents. But lots of people do want to do the job, and get paid an OK salary, and get lots of time off during the year.

[0] http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/high-school-teache...