Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

newyorker.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 114 posts

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#11

Post by geomark »

jccalhoun wrote: post #6
peter_l_downs wrote: post #4

The crackdown is long overdue, but there’s an important consequence: fewer nontraditional students will be able to go to college. Sure, but why would we want to encourage anyone to attend "colleges" like Corinthians and University of Phoenix, if the effects are on average as harmful as described in the article? Not sure if this is just the author trying to shoehorn in some "debate" at the end of the article but it fe…

The whole article has a weird tone when it comes to its descriptions about for-profit colleges. It starts with "Not too long ago, for-profit colleges looked like the future of education." When was that? People that knew anything about for-profit colleges have known they were mostly ripoffs for years. What people might have thought is that online colleges were the future. Those aren't dependent on the for-profit model…

"...they were mostly ripoffs..."

Maybe my experience is not the norm. I've heard a lot of bad things about schools like Phoenix and DeVry. But I went to DeVry (quite a few years ago) and got a 2-year tech diploma. They also offered a 4 year accredited BSEE at the school I attended (Arizona). It was failry challenging, a lot of people dropped out, but literally eveyone who graduated had a job offer waiting for them, several if you had decent grades. I had three offers from which to choose. It launched a nice career for me, including getting an employer to sponsor me to complete my BSEE.

Things must have changed, because it was pretty solid at that time.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#12

Post by mason240 »

exelius wrote: post #7

This is a good thing for the country; the education provided by these schools is often on par with sources like Kahn Academy and Coursera -- at a much higher price. It seemed like many for-profit colleges are simply a way for "schools" to collect federally guaranteed loans that the students then have to pay back. The student assumes all of the risk. The other side of this industry are charter schools. These are for-p…

All three of those are true with public schools systems.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#13

Post by ThomPete »

exelius wrote: post #7

This is a good thing for the country; the education provided by these schools is often on par with sources like Kahn Academy and Coursera -- at a much higher price. It seemed like many for-profit colleges are simply a way for "schools" to collect federally guaranteed loans that the students then have to pay back. The student assumes all of the risk. The other side of this industry are charter schools. These are for-p…

As someone with a kid in a charter school (Success Academy) I have to disagree with the very premise for how you discuss them.

Some charter schools is a response to the problem of amongst other issues, a way too strong teachers union and it's inability to develop contemporary learning environments for children. In California teachers union have in their agreement that they can't get replaced by new technology.

The high salaries is a tradeoff from the high pressure they put on the teachers and the very fact that they can get fired.

My son start 7.30 in the morning and ends 4.30 in the afternoon you can guess how much the teachers work. They are 32 children in each class.

Success Academy started in Harlem and was responsible for taking the kids out of their social fragile environments and starting to give them good habits and start showing that that others expected things from them and believed in them to deliver. Success Academy is one of the best performing schools in NY state.

Compared to the usual public school system, charter schools when done right is an amazing alternative to the public system.

Now I don't believe charter schools are the only way to do things, but I do believe that teachers unions are way to strong and until they start to change I will do what I can to keep my kids out of them.

Success Academy is privately run but publicly funded and the school have to fight for every dime they get while still staying out of the control of the teachers unions influence through the DOE.

So it's a much more complex discussion than the one you paint here. If anything when charterschools are done right they are a much better model for how the public school system should work IMO.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#14

Post by galby »

ThomPete wrote: post #13
exelius wrote: post #7

This is a good thing for the country; the education provided by these schools is often on par with sources like Kahn Academy and Coursera -- at a much higher price. It seemed like many for-profit colleges are simply a way for "schools" to collect federally guaranteed loans that the students then have to pay back. The student assumes all of the risk. The other side of this industry are charter schools. These are for-p…

As someone with a kid in a charter school (Success Academy) I have to disagree with the very premise for how you discuss them. Some charter schools is a response to the problem of amongst other issues, a way too strong teachers union and it's inability to develop contemporary learning environments for children. In California teachers union have in their agreement that they can't get replaced by new technology. The hi…

That may be true for Success Academy but there are some truly awful charters out there. The problem is that what it means to be a charter school varies so much from state to state and even from district to district.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#15

Post by ThomPete »

galby wrote: post #14
ThomPete wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with a kid in a charter school (Success Academy) I have to disagree with the very premise for how you discuss them. Some charter schools is a response to the problem of amongst other issues, a way too strong teachers union and it's inability to develop contemporary learning environments for children. In California teachers union have in their agreement that they can't get replaced by new technology. The hi…

That may be true for Success Academy but there are some truly awful charters out there. The problem is that what it means to be a charter school varies so much from state to state and even from district to district.

There are even more truly awful publicly funded schools out there too. Harlem have their share. That doesn't mean there aren't good public schools too. But that's not a way to discuss this IMO.

Teaching is hard, getting a school to run properly is hard in todays environment.

Charterschools are good because they allow for differentiation in education. We don't want anyone to be educated exactly the same way. Thats not a good thing.

That charterschools allow for people to take advantage of them is another discussion and can be solved in many different ways.

Instead of just critiquing the fact that they can be misused perhaps it would be more constructive to discuss how to make sure snake oil salesmen doesn't take advantage of the system.

Just like we do with other businesses in general.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#16

Post by Shivetya »

exelius wrote: post #7

This is a good thing for the country; the education provided by these schools is often on par with sources like Kahn Academy and Coursera -- at a much higher price. It seemed like many for-profit colleges are simply a way for "schools" to collect federally guaranteed loans that the students then have to pay back. The student assumes all of the risk. The other side of this industry are charter schools. These are for-p…

Oh please, get off this idea we don't put enough money into education. We put too much, so much so that they ended up hiring people other than teachers and the carry forward costs are too high.

You want to fix education in the US, the money must follow the student. Until the school systems themselves are forced to improve by having students want to attend they won't.

The recent issue with testing which they said was putting too much pressure on students and teachers is also a misdirect. The old school method before testing was required was just to pass the student. As in, Johnny got a D where in no way he knew anything but he is now in eight grade.

We have no teacher shortage, we have less student per teacher than anytime before. The amounts spent per student are many times higher than in the seventies yet what about the value of that education.

It isn't a money issue.

With regards to for profit college educations, well the same with all new high costs course at my local state university - they are created to soak up the money because the fed loans it.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#17

Post by mratzloff »

exelius wrote: post #7

This is a good thing for the country; the education provided by these schools is often on par with sources like Kahn Academy and Coursera -- at a much higher price. It seemed like many for-profit colleges are simply a way for "schools" to collect federally guaranteed loans that the students then have to pay back. The student assumes all of the risk. The other side of this industry are charter schools. These are for-p…

You combined two very important points in #3. For instance, how often do charter schools enroll special education students?

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#18

Post by dalke »

ThomPete wrote: post #15
galby wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true for Success Academy but there are some truly awful charters out there. The problem is that what it means to be a charter school varies so much from state to state and even from district to district.

There are even more truly awful publicly funded schools out there too. Harlem have their share. That doesn't mean there aren't good public schools too. But that's not a way to discuss this IMO. Teaching is hard, getting a school to run properly is hard in todays environment. Charterschools are good because they allow for differentiation in education. We don't want anyone to be educated exactly the same way. Thats not…

I feel like you are presenting a fake contrast.

When I was in public schools, there was a lot of differentiation in education, and students definitely weren't taught all the same, including different levels (eg, AP vs. non AP history), different tracks (eg, extra courses for those interested in practical arts, or interested in programming, for a career), and special support for students with more specific needs, including in my case speech therapy.

Nor do I get the sense that my school system was special in that regard.

"getting a school to run properly is hard in todays environment"

When was it ever easy to run properly?

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#19

Post by wfo »

Shivetya wrote: post #16
exelius wrote: post #7

This is a good thing for the country; the education provided by these schools is often on par with sources like Kahn Academy and Coursera -- at a much higher price. It seemed like many for-profit colleges are simply a way for "schools" to collect federally guaranteed loans that the students then have to pay back. The student assumes all of the risk. The other side of this industry are charter schools. These are for-p…

Oh please, get off this idea we don't put enough money into education. We put too much, so much so that they ended up hiring people other than teachers and the carry forward costs are too high. You want to fix education in the US, the money must follow the student. Until the school systems themselves are forced to improve by having students want to attend they won't. The recent issue with testing which they said was…

Of course it's a money issue. We pay teachers garbage for working harder than anyone else, who wants to do that job? If you got the A-types who go into finance or law or medicine into teaching you'd see a very different scenario play out. Right now it's essentially all-volunteer. People call it "a labor of love" but a double-time job paid at part-time wages is what they mean.

Teachers don't make money or have respect. I'd challenge you to do an excellent job in that scenario.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#20

Post by wfo »

mason240 wrote: post #12
exelius wrote: post #7

This is a good thing for the country; the education provided by these schools is often on par with sources like Kahn Academy and Coursera -- at a much higher price. It seemed like many for-profit colleges are simply a way for "schools" to collect federally guaranteed loans that the students then have to pay back. The student assumes all of the risk. The other side of this industry are charter schools. These are for-p…

All three of those are true with public schools systems.

No. Public schools don't get to pre-select their students and then claim to ourperform other schools because they just picked the best ones. Public schools are not faith-based. Public schools do not have enormous administrative salaries
Post reply on HN