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Don't Fly During Ramadan

varnull.adityamukerjee.net

891–900 of 986 posts

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#891
Well this story vaguely reminds me of post communist Romania where all newly freed government agencies were fucking with people however they wanted. And I can tell you now it wasn't any ordinary governmental agency that searched his apartment it was the CIA or NSA.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#892
post #881

I've wanted to move from Australia to Silicon Valley for a few years now. I mean, I'm an entreprenurial software engineer: it's where I'm _supposed_ to be, right? But, over the past few years, I've learnt more and more about the US of A. And I don't like how things are done over there. Sure, Australia isn't perfect (if I hear anyone say "Boat People" once more, I'm going to punch them right in the face), and I'm a yo…

Canada seems to be opening doors for tech entrepreneurs. If I have the chance, that's probably where I'd like to go.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#893
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been there done that. They also asked my religion. I said I'm Buddhist (sort of true, though I'm not a very good one) and after a brief chat, I was sent off with my beans. No pat down, no detention. FYI, If you want to avoid this, handle as few volatile compounds as you can (E.G. Alcohol based products). Better yet, stop using that artificial malarkey altogether. You'll smell less offensive and it would probably be h…

You cannot have true security. You can have acceptable security. The law of diminishing returns kicks very hard after a point. Basically you should aim to keep terrorism the least of the risks for the society but to accept it as a non zero. But the moment less people are dying from terrorism than lets say random obscure health condition then the money and resources are better invested elsewhere.

The point isn't the number of people dying. Its the chilling effect. Travel was way down after 9/11 due to fear. That has a much bigger economic effect than just the deaths.

In the 1970s there was no airport security. Airliners believed it would be cheaper to just pay off plane hijackers. That was before those hijackers started flying them into skyscrapers.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#895
post #886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What incentive does a TSA inspector have to make him or her want to do a private pat down on a traveler like in this story? What does the TSA agent get out of needlessly fucking with some random person?

There are many people who enjoy controlling or even abusing others and positions that give people power over others obviously attract those people - psychopathy prevalence in those groups is statistically higher than in general population. This is not as rare as you might think - if you work in a home for elderly with Alzheimer's disease (who are especially defenseless) I can almost guarantee that apart from caring h…

>Also I can imagine a number of rationalizations and psychological mechanisms that can explain how working for this kind of organization affects people - the Stanford Prison Experiment etc.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3025

Not that I don't broadly agree.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#896
post #94
post #6

This makes me so angry. This was one of the reasons I got out of consulting. Every fucking time, I would get an enhanced check. Surprisingly enough, it is nothing new. This is something you face if you are a minority. Hell, I remember a friend from back in Africa whose dad got blacklisted in the nineties because he had a beard. Brown catholic guy with a beard got blacklisted. The only difference now is that at least…

If I were a consultant today, I'd look into buying an RV. No more dirty hotel rooms or questionable restaurant food. And a much lower chance of a TSA encounter.

Or a private pilot license.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#897
post #861
post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the US is nowhere near being an authoritarian police state, at what point will US become a authoritarian police state? When they have kill lists without any trial, jury or judge? When they keep prisoners in jail indefinitely without a trial? When they torture prisoners? When state officials lie to the public? When state officials lie to public representatives? When the secret police interfere with lawyers communic…

Dunno. When it becomes illegal to oppose the current government? When there is any political ideology it is illegal to espouse that does not involve directly inciting people to commit crimes? When it becomes illegal to stage mass protests about anything? When the media is directly owned by the state, as it is in many places? When journalists and activists are jailed, as they are in many places? When the media feels i…

The problems with many of these, is that a lot of obviously authoritarian governments like to pretend they're doing just fine. Note that I'm not arguing the US is yet an authoritarian police state, or that many of these apply to the US, but rather that it is also not helpful to make the criteria too strict - a key feature of many authoritarian governments is that they try to superficially appear, at least to their supporters who may especially in early phases make up a substantial proportion of the population, as "gentler" and more open than they are.

> When it becomes illegal to oppose the current government?

DDR on paper was a multi-party democracy. It was legal to oppose the current government. Even take part in parties other than the socialist party. Just if you did, Stasi might invent other ways of making you shut up, or you'd run afoul of other laws.

Of course the other parties all took part in a single electoral block with the SED (except for in the DDR's last ever election which was also the first where people could actually vote for more than one party), which somehow always totally dominated the parliament, and the other parties representatives also always voted the SED line, but it was of course all "voluntary".

Setting up the electoral system so that real opposition is near impossible is a gentler approach than actually outlawing opposition. Or make actual opposition start from an extreme financial handicap.

Mao, which we'll get back to, also provides plenty of demonstrations of how to do this without making it explicitly illegal: A central element of the Cultural Revolution was to build up a "social movement" that would fight supposed capitalists and counter-revolutionaries, but implicitly also anyone opposing Mao, and let a bunch of misled youth do the dirty work (not unlike Hitlerjugend). A lot of their work then later led to trumped up charges or various people recanting or "voluntarily" relinquishing their power.

If you want to make it look like you have popular support, it's much better to let "social movements" harass the opposition than to do it yourself, but not any less authoritarian.

> When there is any political ideology it is illegal to espouse that does not involve directly inciting people to commit crimes?

Most Soviet-era dictatorships would argue that they did just fine on this. You could espouse anything that wouldn't incite people to commit crime, they'd say. Of course espousing capitalism or actual democratic rights would be interpreted as inciting people to commit crimes.

> When it becomes illegal to stage mass protests about anything?

Even most Western democracies require permits for mass protests, and this is easy to exploit. A typical authoritarian government response to this is to make it legal, but only give permission when the protests are not seen as a threat, or to copy approaches also used by democratic states: Kettling, "Free speech zones", or simply refusing permits on security groups, or approving it for a time/date that kills its impact.

But a smart authoritarian government will welcome demonstrations that are not seen as a threat, or that are aligned with their interests. Mao's Cultural Revolution is a good example of mass demonstrations being used in support of an authoritarian government.

> When the media is directly owned by the state, as it is in many places?

What about when the media are owned by companies that know full well they exist only at the grace of government and "behave" and/or are owned by people beholden to the government? The effect is entirely the same.

> When journalists and activists are jailed, as they are in many places?

Inventing other crimes is easy. So is intimidating them instead of jailing them. Jailing them is the unsophisticated approach.

> When the media feels in any way uncomfortable roundly criticizing the government?

There's a sliding scale here that is incredibly hard to judge, because a lot of the time the media is "uncomfortable" criticising the government because they care about access, or because they don't think their audience or their advertisers will want to read/hear/watch it. Arguably the US is already in a situation where it takes extreme situations before the major media outlets wants to rock the boat.

> When the media feels too uncomfortable to openly publish government secrets which were previously leaked?

I'll grant you this is probably a good indicator - I can't think of any examples of obviously authoritarian governments that'd tolerate this other than for documents obviously "leaked" with permission.

> When most people think the government is authoritarian and needs to be reined in? > When enough people think the government is authoritarian that, under a democratic system, they would be a powerful voting bloc?

This doesn't make sense to me as it's incredibly hard to judge, and a government can be authoritarian but still be roughly aligned with the interests of a majority in a way that makes it seem relatively open on the surface. By the time a government is authoritarian, you won't be able to get good data on this.

> When at least enough people think the government is authoritarian for the idea to be given serious consideration in mainstream debates? (Debate about specific programs that need to be curtailed, without a general sense that the government is comparable to a police state, do not count.)

> When we don't see things happening like > a rightwing antigovernment political movement becoming very popular and taking over a significant portion of the legislature;

You mean like the NSDAP? (Yes, I know what you're actually referring to, and no, I'm not trying to compare them to the NSDAP other than the fact the NSDAP also campaigned massively on how bad the establishment were doing, and got substantial public support, as have many other movements that have had both good and bad intentions).

This is making assumptions about the power structure of an authoritarian government that are too simple. There's been plenty of authoritarian government where "mass movements" were built promising massive change and an opposition to current government practices, but where they were used simply for internal power struggles and getting a "clean slate".

Again, Mao is a good example - the Cultural Revolution was used as a means to imprison or disgrace a long list of high powered opponents of Mao, some, like Deng Xiaoping, who later eventually managed to run China despite never taking the posts that would have given him official leadership (making him another good example of how looking at formalities of who are officially in charge doesn't work very well).

> a leftwing anticapitalist political movement staging provocative long-term demonstrations around the country with, at the end of the day, mostly pretty reasonable interactions with various municipal police departments, and managing at least to significantly influence the debate;

Occupy was never a threat to anyone - it was horribly disorganised, had no understanding of actual left wing politics or the history of these kind of struggles in the US to the point where they were largely a joke. If anything "occupy" was a useful outlet to let people take out their frustrations without achieving much. A smart authoritarian government should "encourage" demonstrations like that - if nothing else they'd be greatly useful in charting "persons of interest".

Mao is again a perfect example of why "influencing the debate" in itself is meaningless: His "Hundred flowers campaign" is a textbook example of how to encourage debate, give the debaters room to get their frustrations out, and then shut the door (option extra for advanced authoritarians: carefully observe the debates and take note of who might be a continued threat, and find ways of making sure they aren't - up to and including arrest, or simply ensure they are ridiculed).

> a judge placing harsh limits on a practice by a city's police department that was found to be unconstitutional?

What about high level officials being arrested for corruption and abuse of powers? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-23776348 China prosecutes or persecutes even high level party officials on a semi-regular basis, and has since Mao's time (e.g. again Deng Xiaoping is a good example) - it's a great way of getting rid of people that have lost internal power struggles while giving an aura of accountability. It's also just good practice to apply harsh limits on parts of governments that does not impact your ability to rule - the more people are led to believe that the government does actually abide by the rules the less impetus there is to rebellion even if everyone realises that they live in an authoritarian state.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#898
post #677
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've a friend who spent a good deal of time recently in Khazakhstan, and she was very amused by my attempts to express my fears of the United States becoming an authoritarian police state. She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. And she is right — the US is nowhere near being an authoritarian police state. But it i…

If the US is nowhere near being an authoritarian police state, at what point will US become a authoritarian police state? When they have kill lists without any trial, jury or judge? When they keep prisoners in jail indefinitely without a trial? When they torture prisoners? When state officials lie to the public? When state officials lie to public representatives? When the secret police interfere with lawyers communic…

The US will become an authoritarian police state when it starts silencing all opposition to the state as a matter of course. That isn't the case yet. However, the processes, institutions and technology available to the US government already seem quite capable of facilitating authoritarian control. Personally, I suspect that it's just a matter of time. All the things you talk about have happened, but they happen rarely. With the right leadership in power, they could easily start to become commonplace. The thing is, anyone who says something that doesn't conform to state ideology can be said to be aiding terrorists, by spreading an "extremist" message and implicitly encouraging others towards terrorism. The general public seem quite happy with whatever treatment "terrorists" get, so I can't see there being much standing in the way.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#899
post #886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many people who enjoy controlling or even abusing others and positions that give people power over others obviously attract those people - psychopathy prevalence in those groups is statistically higher than in general population. This is not as rare as you might think - if you work in a home for elderly with Alzheimer's disease (who are especially defenseless) I can almost guarantee that apart from caring h…

>Also I can imagine a number of rationalizations and psychological mechanisms that can explain how working for this kind of organization affects people - the Stanford Prison Experiment etc. http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3025 Not that I don't broadly agree.

I up-voted your comment, that comic strip is spot on, but I was trying to express my feelings more than stating some general statement about human nature.

I remember that when I was reading Zimbardo's book I was most touched when he was describing how he himself was under the influence of the experiment and his empathy to "subjects" deteriorated. Only after his girlfriend expressed her concerns he realized that something went horribly wrong. We are influenced by the context, behaviour of others, interpretation of the situation etc. way more than we would like to believe and I can easily imagine that if I were one of those TSA agents I could behave in a way that I now find despicable. That's why I think we really need to be aware of those things despite the fact that they might not be conclusively proven as a 'part of human nature'.

EDIT: also let me mention another IMO super-interesting book about this subject: The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness by Erich Fromm. One of the best books I've ever red.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#900
post #863

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me as an outside observer it is the rate of change of the rights and freedoms that is scary and stunning, not the decline in absolute terms. US involuntarily have all pieces of the puzzle for a very high quality totalitarian state. The question is whether someone will be able to assemble them before the immune system of the american society activates in full force and dismantles them. Surveillance capabilities: c…

Homeland == vaterland. You did not have this term until the DHS came about.

If 'vaterland' is intended to be the German translation of Homeland, then Homeland == Heimat. And although usually an innocuous word, in certain contexts some Nazi connontations cling to it.

The word 'Homeland' actually creeps me out more than 'Heimat'.

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