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Don't Fly During Ramadan

varnull.adityamukerjee.net

861–870 of 986 posts

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#861
post #677
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've a friend who spent a good deal of time recently in Khazakhstan, and she was very amused by my attempts to express my fears of the United States becoming an authoritarian police state. She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. And she is right — the US is nowhere near being an authoritarian police state. But it i…

If the US is nowhere near being an authoritarian police state, at what point will US become a authoritarian police state? When they have kill lists without any trial, jury or judge? When they keep prisoners in jail indefinitely without a trial? When they torture prisoners? When state officials lie to the public? When state officials lie to public representatives? When the secret police interfere with lawyers communic…

Dunno.

When it becomes illegal to oppose the current government?

When there is any political ideology it is illegal to espouse that does not involve directly inciting people to commit crimes?

When it becomes illegal to stage mass protests about anything?

When the media is directly owned by the state, as it is in many places?

When journalists and activists are jailed, as they are in many places?

When the media feels in any way uncomfortable roundly criticizing the government?

When the media feels too uncomfortable to openly publish government secrets which were previously leaked?

When most people think the government is authoritarian and needs to be reined in?

When enough people think the government is authoritarian that, under a democratic system, they would be a powerful voting bloc?

When at least enough people think the government is authoritarian for the idea to be given serious consideration in mainstream debates? (Debate about specific programs that need to be curtailed, without a general sense that the government is comparable to a police state, do not count.)

When we don't see things happening like

a rightwing antigovernment political movement becoming very popular and taking over a significant portion of the legislature;

a leftwing anticapitalist political movement staging provocative long-term demonstrations around the country with, at the end of the day, mostly pretty reasonable interactions with various municipal police departments, and managing at least to significantly influence the debate;

a judge placing harsh limits on a practice by a city's police department that was found to be unconstitutional?

Wikipedia cites the following elements of authoritarianism:

(1) "limited, not responsible, political pluralism"; that is, constraints on political institutions and groups (such as legislatures, political parties, and interest groups), (2) a basis for legitimacy based on emotion, especially the identification of the regime as a necessary evil to combat "easily recognizable societal problems" such as underdevelopment or insurgency; (3) neither "intensive nor extensive political mobilization" and constraints on the mass public (such as repressive tactics against opponents and a prohibition of antiregime activity) and (4) "formally ill-defined" executive power, often shifting or vague.

Let's see:

(1) Not applicable.

(2) Nationalism and emotional support for the government in general is alive and perhaps too well, but politicians almost never attempt to use such emotional arguments to support keeping themselves in power rather than electing the other party.

(3) Political mobilization is fine. No repression. Prosecuting leakers, whether you oppose it or not, does not count.

(4) There are issues regarding Congressional oversight of certain executive programs, but there are certainly limits on the President's power. In fact, on the kinds of issues (economic, social) that the current President spends most of his time talking about, he seems to get his way remarkably rarely.

It is possible to criticize moves that are abuses of power or resemble those of an authoritarian police state in some aspects without literally, and incorrectly, calling the US an authoritarian police state.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#862
post #855

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those criteria, plus I think an extra criterion that they have to happen to so many people that it reaches some kind of tipping point where there's a mass consensus that things are authoritarian. Just to be clear, I'm not excusing the abuses you've listed.

But all of those criteria are already true in both the US and the UK. I think that was his point.

I don't believe there's a mass consensus that it's an authoritarian regime. I'm not even sure there's a mass consensus that it's heading in that direction, regardless of what I personally believe.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#863

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. She's right, and like her, I have found it next to impossible to explain this to Americans who think the US is turning into a police state. People making this claim should spend a few hours reading on history and learn about the Gestapo or the Stasi. What's happening in the U…

For me as an outside observer it is the rate of change of the rights and freedoms that is scary and stunning, not the decline in absolute terms. US involuntarily have all pieces of the puzzle for a very high quality totalitarian state. The question is whether someone will be able to assemble them before the immune system of the american society activates in full force and dismantles them. Surveillance capabilities: c…

Homeland == vaterland. You did not have this term until the DHS came about.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those criteria, plus I think an extra criterion that they have to happen to so many people that it reaches some kind of tipping point where there's a mass consensus that things are authoritarian. Just to be clear, I'm not excusing the abuses you've listed.

Do you seriously think that classic examples of XX century authoritarian states had mass consensus that they are authoritarian? That would be a post-modern authoritarian state.

I suppose it has to be mass consensus among the persecuted class and the friends of the persecuted class.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#865
post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ex-soviet central Asian republics are packed full of secret police -- until 2006, Turkmenistan boasted one of the world's most famous totalitarian regimes under his Amazingself-for-life President Niyazov, and although his successor has made some reforms, things haven't gotten much better since Niyazov's death. The other republics share the same kind of government to a greater or lesser extent. IWPR at http://iwpr…

Kazakhstan is nothing like Turkmenistan in this regard. In fact, it's nothing like Uzbekistan even. In terms of personal freedoms, average life in Kazakhstan is on par with the US, if not "freer" than the US. It's certainly no police state.

Agreed. Kaz is very free, compared to, say, Kyrgyz, or Uzbek, or Turkmen. It's also very free compared to the US. You can see the "secret" police. They stand out like sore thumbs, as they're mostly Russians, and dress different, and harass people.

I think that she may have mistaken overt police corruption for a police state. The two are not synonymous.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#866
post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ex-soviet central Asian republics are packed full of secret police -- until 2006, Turkmenistan boasted one of the world's most famous totalitarian regimes under his Amazingself-for-life President Niyazov, and although his successor has made some reforms, things haven't gotten much better since Niyazov's death. The other republics share the same kind of government to a greater or lesser extent. IWPR at http://iwpr…

I'd say this is probably true for Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan, as those countries have powerful authoritarian leaders that fully enjoy the benefits of the security apparatus left over from the USSR. Tajikistan is different as the president's power is somewhat limited the further away you go from the few important cities. Don't know much about Kazakhstan, but I suspect it's more or less like Uzbekistan.

Been there. Nothing like Uzbekistan. And Uzbekistan is nothing like Turkmen. Just because they're in the same (HUGE) part of the world doesn't make them all the same.

Mexicans, Americans, Ecuadorians, what's the difference?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#867
A tech company I worked for a while back wanted to send me to the States, and also China to do some work. I refused on both requests because of stories like this I've heard. I just tell them it's because of family commitments, which is always a handy excuse. Other countries I would never go to are Russia, Saudi Arabia, UAE and pretty much anywhere in Africa. It's pretty sad actually, but I guess I'm way too paranoid.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#868
post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The racist overtones are also scary.

Actually I found two things very scary. 1. The ignorance on the part of the police and agents was stunning. Conflating Hindu and Muslim? 2. The explosive alarms.... Evidently they are set to detect some very common household chemicals. Based on the story I am assuming the culprit in this case was household ammonia. It isn't clear to me that the agents would have any idea as to what could trigger a false positive eith…

The detectors are most certainly cheap ion mobility spectrometers. They ionize the sample and sort the resulting cloud by the speed at which the ions move in an electric field in a low pressure gas. The resulting spectrum is fairly unique to each chemical.

The obvious problem is that you get a superposition of spectrums of multiple chemicals from the sample and that the devices being cheap and fast produce "blurry" spectrums, so you get a lot of false positives.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#869
post #133
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you an American? I'm curious, because in my experience the American interment of Japanese is fairly well known among Americans and Japanese, and not well known by everyone else.

Internment is a revisionist word to make it sound less harsh. They were concentration camps.

I can't say I agree. My grandparents were interned at Tule Lake and they (along with my other Japanese-American family) prefer "internment" as the nomenclature.

"Concentration camp" implies something else entirely, to them.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly agree. Concentration camp is an umbrella term, both in German and English. However, if we're talking about the exact type of camps, it makes sense use the proper words and inform readers of the distinction. It's only fair to the victims to use appropriate language and not play down the severity of their situation.

Yes, I agree. To be clear, I do prefer using the term "concentration camps" to refer to what the US did to the Japanese, but I understand that others object to that and find their objections fairly reasonable.

I wouldn't necessarily argue the use of "concentration camps," but as I said in this thread, my grandparents and many of their family and friends were interned and they all use "internment camp" as the preferred nomenclature. They have generally avoided the use of "concentration camp."
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