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Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

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Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#891

Post by vel0city »

sroerick wrote: post #887
vel0city wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd generally rather see a crew cab pickup on the road than an oversized SUV with a single, tiny person driving solo. If it's the same person doing the same activities, why would you prefer if it's a large truck instead of an SUV? Shouldn't we prefer people realistically right-size their vehicle choices? If it's just a small person driving around running small errands shouldn't they probably be in something other t…

Yeah, maybe it's actually none of your business what other people drive.

Its totally my business when their choices make my family and friends less safe and less healthy and makes our communities worse off.

Imagine if someone had a machine that they could press a button and it would just give them a bit of happiness, but gave your kids asthma and lung cancer, poisoned the water, killed crops, and could potentially kill a random innocent person in a gruesome way. Should they press that button? Are you good with them pressing that button all the time for practically any reason? Do you feel you should have a say on if they should press that button, or how often they could press that button? Do you think you'd probably go around talking to people about these machines and the issues of pressing that button, to try and convince others to only buy the machine and press the button if they actually need to, or maybe buy the machine that poisons us less per press?

Should you have a say when a company excessively releases cancer-causing particulates into the air? Should we have a say when a company releases machines into our communities that have an excessively higher risk to maim and kill the people around those machines? If we should have a say when a company does these things, why shouldn't we when its private individuals doing the same?

I've said in my previous comment, if you actually do drive around in places where you need the ground clearance, when you actually do tow things, when you actually do use the bed in ways that are needed, fine by me. I see lots of trucks doing actual truck things as well. But the vast majority of these vehicles aren't used in these ways. This is the problem I'm talking about. I've had someone say to me they needed their pickup truck, no other vehicle could possibly be used because sometimes they have to carry their kids bicycles around and the only way that could be done effectively was in the bed of their truck. There was someone in the comment section here suggesting a truck was necessary to take a canoe someplace, as if that's something only a truck could do. The craziest thing about that canoe story, I've heard it from several other people as well, incredible this is a common idea it seems.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#892

Post by sroerick »

vel0city wrote: post #638
sroerick wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Truck Country, Wyoming If you need a truck for work, you're probably going to be towing in it. Now, some of those guys who are hauling are gonna need a 250 or a 350, but a lot of them will do just fine with the 150. Even if your job isn't hauling, per se, if you work on job sites you wanna be able to haul stuff. Imagine if you showed up to your new Tech Lead job with an 8 year old Chromebook. You'd look a l…

> I like Teslas a lot, but gave you ever been on a road trip in one? Not a Tesla but a different EV. I've taken it on about a dozen road trips over the years. It's been fine. I pull off the highway, plug in, go grab a quick snack, get back in the car and go on my way. On a several hour drive it adds an extra 20 minutes assuming I'm not stopping at all in the ICE, not that big of a deal. And honestly I should be doing…

It really only takes 20 minutes to charge?

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#893

Post by cyberax »

roadside_picnic wrote: post #779
cyberax wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And as I pointed out, pretty much all these road trips are already possible, although some may require slight detours. With some fairly limited changes, they won't require any detours.

> slight detours. If you're up in Neah Bay, WA (and I have been out there in the past so this isn't a fantasy scenario) and suddenly realize you need to charge, you need to drive over an hour and ten minutes to Forks, WA. But they only have a 250kW charging station, so you're going to need to wait 30-40 minutes. Now if you need to get back to Neah Bay, you're going to spend a total of 3 hours . And, for my case, Neah…

If you _live_ in Neah Bay, you likely use your home charger. There are also slow chargers in nearby hotels for tourists.

If you are traveling, through then you just plan to have enough charge to reach the next charger (50 miles away in Forks).

I know that area well, I travel through it every several months. It also does not have a lot of gas stations, and the existing ones are about $1.5 over the regular price per gallon.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#894

Post by WorldMaker »

ericd wrote: post #827
WorldMaker wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Level 1 and 2 charging are something of an equivalent to siphoning gas, and maybe too easily overlooked. Carry a wall plug and dryer plug adapter and you can plug in just about anywhere. RV plug in the camping area of a national park. Utility plug on the back of a work shed in the middle of nowhere. Won't charge you fast, sure, but can be the difference to charge you enough to make it to the next stop, in some cases.

Yeah, I meant siphon gas truck-to-truck, but it seems most worksites would be wired or have generation of some sort, so mobile charger should be able to do something in a pinch. I have had situations where a normal 1400W wasn’t enough to keep pace with keeping the battery warm enough to make any headway on an actual charge, though, but that remote AND cold is a another level.

V2V (vehicle to vehicle) charging is a standard option supported by CCS and NACS. So far implementations are limited, with most of the current focus on V2H (vehicle to home) or maybe V2G (vehicle to grid). The Ford F-150 Lightning supports V2H but not V2V today. (Interestingly, the Tesla Cybertruck does support V2V.)

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#895

Post by vel0city »

sroerick wrote: post #892
vel0city wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I like Teslas a lot, but gave you ever been on a road trip in one? Not a Tesla but a different EV. I've taken it on about a dozen road trips over the years. It's been fine. I pull off the highway, plug in, go grab a quick snack, get back in the car and go on my way. On a several hour drive it adds an extra 20 minutes assuming I'm not stopping at all in the ICE, not that big of a deal. And honestly I should be doing…

It really only takes 20 minutes to charge?

It takes however long I need to charge it to reach my next destination, whether that be the final destination or the next charging stop. Maybe I'm charging for 10 minutes, maybe I'm charging for 20. When I'm on a road trip, there's rarely a reason to charge for more than 20 minutes at any given stop.

The rate of charging is a curve, where at a low state of charge you can dump a lot of energy into very rapidly. When its nearly full, you can't charge it as fast without risking damaging the battery.

This is a massive simplification and not quite what's really going on, but think of the battery having a lot of holes to stick electrons in. If the electrons you're pumping in don't smoothly find a hole, it might damage the battery. When the battery is low, there's lots of holes, electrons can just fly in and they'll probably hit an empty spot. When its nearly full, you have to carefully put the electrons into the holes or else you'll damage it. This is kind of what's going on with charging speeds.

So you probably see these charging times of over an hour or whatever to go 0-100%, but the more important stat to look at is the 0-80% charge time which is often like 20 minutes. That 0-80% time will often be like 20min but the 80-100% can often be another hour or more on top of that.

When I stop to charge the car on a road trip the time I take is usually like 10-20 minutes. There's no reason to spend more time than that, because the charging speed drops dramatically that its not usually worth it unless I really need that last 20% of range. Which I usually don't, because there's usually other spots to charge. And then I get where I'm going and the car will be sitting for a few hours and can charge at whatever speed it wants, I'm not needing it.

FWIW though, I spend way more time in my life pumping gas in my ICE than I do waiting on my EV to charge, even including the time I've spent on road trips on the EV. This is even with my EV having significantly more miles on it over the past few years. Its a question of if I spend an extra 15 minutes a few times a year or more than five minutes every other week.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#896

Post by omnimus »

philipallstar wrote: post #623
omnimus wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair. Look I think the big difference in perception is that in most countries outside US these trucks are just a symbol. Like if you see some F-150 or RAM it is always used by some angry MAGA and gun supporters. It makes no sense to use these in Europe. They are not road legal so they are imported under special licenses, they are so oversized they can't park anywhere. There restrictions on loading pickups so people d…

This is just social media and your news outlets of choice feeding you what you'd like to see.

No this is my personal experience from occasionally meeting some nonsense oversized car.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#897

Post by foobazgt »

sroerick wrote: post #890
foobazgt wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I like Teslas a lot, but gave you ever been on a road trip in one? It's pretty brutal. Maybe 50 road trips? Usually hundreds of miles, with the longest at 1000mi. Literally the easiest road trips I've done in my life.

Okay! Cani ask, how long did it take? Every one I've been on took far, far longer

They take about the same time as with an ICE. I stop and charge for 20m whenever I need a restroom break or some food (every couple hours or so). My car generally goes longer without stopping than I do.

If you're stopping often or long, something is wrong with your setup.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#898

Post by arantius »

0xffff2 wrote: post #821
WorldMaker wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dealers certainly make less profit on EVs. The Dealer model was built around regular, required maintenance schedules as profit centers. EVs have far fewer moving parts and fluids with regular maintenance schedules. Dealers are incentivized to sell more ICE than EVs for the good of their own profits. Ford and GM unfortunately can't cannibalize their relationship with dealers under current American regulations and so w…

>Dealers certainly make less profit on EVs. The Dealer model was built around regular, required maintenance schedules as profit centers. EVs have far fewer moving parts and fluids with regular maintenance schedules. Is there any data out there on what percentage of new car buyers take their vehicle to the dealer for maintenance? I've found myself in a position where I can't do my own maintenance for the first time in…

For one piece of anecdata:

I drive a hybrid with a weird size/shape 12V battery. (It uses the traction battery for starting, so only needs a smaller 12V for e.g. accessories and simple bootstrapping of electronics.) Though I normally do my own maintenance at this scale, when it went bad I went to the dealer because they both had the right battery and didn't charge much more than parts. Plus drove me home after dropoff, and drove me back there when it was done (a few hours later? fuzzy memory), at no extra cost.

They're not all awful?

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#900

Post by WorldMaker »

0xffff2 wrote: post #821
WorldMaker wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dealers certainly make less profit on EVs. The Dealer model was built around regular, required maintenance schedules as profit centers. EVs have far fewer moving parts and fluids with regular maintenance schedules. Dealers are incentivized to sell more ICE than EVs for the good of their own profits. Ford and GM unfortunately can't cannibalize their relationship with dealers under current American regulations and so w…

>Dealers certainly make less profit on EVs. The Dealer model was built around regular, required maintenance schedules as profit centers. EVs have far fewer moving parts and fluids with regular maintenance schedules. Is there any data out there on what percentage of new car buyers take their vehicle to the dealer for maintenance? I've found myself in a position where I can't do my own maintenance for the first time in…

I don't have actual statistics, but some factors I can think of:

- New car leases sometimes require dealership-only maintenance.

- Car warranties sometimes imply upcharges may be allowed (such as labor fees) during warranty services if non-warranty maintenance wasn't handled by the dealership.

- New cars sometimes come with discount plans or service subscriptions for maintenance at the dealership.

- Maintenance at a single dealership still sometimes gets reflected in resale value, including trade-ins to that dealership and also some people and auctions will pay a small premium for "single owner, dealer maintained" cars.

Yeah, dealers are an interesting experience at times, but there's an interesting web of reasons that people still use those services.

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