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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#891

Post by blindmute »

erklik wrote: post #847
blindmute wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because there is no reason to have animosity toward a woman becoming a man. The main objections to MtF are about safety (a MtF will always be stronger and bigger than a woman on average) and fairness (should male born people get female scholarships, compete in women's sports?). A FtM is not hurting anything or taking any opportunities away from anyone really.

> fairness (should male born people get female scholarships, compete in women's sports?). A FtM is not hurting anything or taking any opportunities away from anyone really fairness is an issue when considering MtF, but not FtM? why exactly?

There are no zero sum advantages to being a man that can be harmed by a FtM entering the pool.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#892

Post by blindmute »

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #690
blindmute wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because there is no reason to have animosity toward a woman becoming a man. The main objections to MtF are about safety (a MtF will always be stronger and bigger than a woman on average) and fairness (should male born people get female scholarships, compete in women's sports?). A FtM is not hurting anything or taking any opportunities away from anyone really.

You are making broad statements about the prevalence of psychological attitudes in the general public. Do you have an academic citation to back up your assertions?

No.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#893

Post by kelnos »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #864
dougmwne wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only weird to you because you are almost certainly straight, cis and male. Let me explain. All of society is structured around your identity. Like the fish, you can't even see the water because you have always been in it. I'm unlikely to help you see the water, but let me at least try. If you meet a friend, he might comment he saw a movie with his new girlfriend. He shows you a photo on his phone and you say she…

Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I wasn't thinking as much about normal conversations - "I was at lunch with my boyfriend", etc. It's one thing to say that, it's quite another to make statements to people about what sort of sex you want to have -- that's what I find awkward. I guess the takeaway is that sex is pretty central to civilization and society, as it's a prerequisite to and determinant of family structure.…

I think the issue is that a gay man or a lesbian does not yet know if it is safe to even have those normal conversations with some person they are just getting to know. If they're asked a question that would lead to "I was at lunch with my boyfriend/girlfriend", they might get a homophobic response.

Directly coming out to you, when they are comfortable and emotionally prepared for it, is a way to avoid a traumatic reaction during normal conversation.

Beyond that, when you've been forced to repress some part of yourself due to social expectations, it can be a big relief to be able to specifically tell people about that part of you, rather than just letting it come up obliquely during conversation when you happen to refer to a same-sex partner.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#894

Post by esyir »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #823
btilly wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. Wh…

I hate to wade into a controversial topic where I'm under-educated and have limited info/opinions; but for what little it is worth to add to anecdata - the current cohort of 12-15 year old girls in my friend/family circle are virtually all in some level of gender dysphoria. Most of their parents are supportive and loving but... panicked, I guess - completely uncertain what to do, how best to help them, and without ro…

Something I've wondered about this is the social pressure around dysphoria. Dysphoria, ironically, has become trendy, particularly about social media. See the "cis is boring" view that's been in vogue for some time across multiple social media platforms. This article on increasing rates of desistance after lockdown [1] (Disclaimer: Evidence isn't well structured and is arguably anecdotal) makes me consider the positive impact of social pressure on transition. That detransition seems like a clear blind spot in the literature (deliberately? it's another r/l culture war hotspot) means that all we get is anecdote for now though. Do note that other studies seem to report relatively high rates of desistance amongst children transitioners as compared to adults.

[1] https://4w.pub/social-media-trends-indicate-rise-in-gender-d...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#895

Post by Clewza313 »

whoooooo123 wrote: post #720
hackinthebochs wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third Here's the problem I have with this line of defense: it doesn't accommodate the reality of self-id and the likely downstream effects if it becomes the accepted norm. If all it takes for a male to be housed in a female prison is a checkmark on a form, we should expect that many cis-men will take advantage of the situation, thus creating a very real threat of a…

This isn't a hypothetical; it's already happened. Look up the case of Karen White in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#896

Post by slg »

hkai wrote: post #885
slg wrote: post #860

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In other words, we can ask 30 or 40 year olds, did you feel unhappy with your identity as much as today's youth feel about their identities but couldn't wouldn't express it? This won't be accurate for a few reasons. First, there are certainly people in denial about these feelings. A society that is more hostile to trans people will yield a society that has more trans people denying their true identity. That should b…

Okay so we can't ask today's 30 or 40 year olds about their feelings growing up? This makes your theory conveniently unfalsifiable.

I never said we couldn't ask. I said it wouldn't be accurate to use their answers to project onto current young people. And just because it might be unfalsifiable doesn't mean it would be any less true.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#897

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc »

blindmute wrote: post #892
9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making broad statements about the prevalence of psychological attitudes in the general public. Do you have an academic citation to back up your assertions?

No.

Here’s some interesting research on the prevalence and varieties of reasons why people have negative attitudes towards transgender individuals.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C50&q=att...

The scientific community may not yet have crafted any research on the specific question of attitudes towards transgender athletes, but it shouldn’t be hard to find the research if it exists.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#898

Post by matchbok »

Mindwipe wrote: post #800

The Economist is not neutral on this - it has numerous editorial staff with a long history of transphobia, and a very vested interest in trying to propagate a general backlash against rights for trans people. Much of this article is vague - things are "growing" with little evidence to back such assertions up. The reason for that is that they are primarily wishful thinking.

They aren’t transphobic. They understand science. There’s a difference.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#899

Post by [deleted] »

danShumway wrote: post #710
handrous wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls. From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe th…

I'll add onto this, if people are genuinely worried about invasive surgery, the policing of trans identity is counterproductive to addressing that concern. What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns, allowing them to dress themselves the way they wish and allowing them to seek affirmative care and affirmative communities -- so that they can explore their own gender identity without feeling li…

[deleted]

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#900

Post by throwawaysea »

AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #881
mc32 wrote: post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this raises a few questions. Has anything changed in the last 10 or 20 years? Why does this affect as many youths as it does today? No doubt there was unhappiness with one's identity in the past, but I doubt it was at the level it is today. And, in addition, I doubt it's at the same elevated level in all countries. In other words, we can ask 30 or 40 year olds, did you as a kid feel unhappy with your identity…

Not endorsing it per-se or suggesting it should be accepted wholesale but good reading on this is _ Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters_ https://www.amazon.com/Irreversible-Damage-Transgender-Seduc...

There have been many attempts to get this book banned at booksellers. The author, Abigail Shriner, wrote about her experience through all this censorship at her Substack: https://abigailshrier.substack.com/p/has-censorship-become-o...
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