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What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

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Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#891

Post by helen___keller »

cactus2093 wrote: post #887
dalbasal wrote: post #853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is meta/tangent, but I've had similar conversations a few times recently. Seems to be in the zeitgeist. Re: everyone starts deciding what they believe to be truth within 48 hours of the outage. Maybe, hopefully... the epidemic is humbling us. It's been significant and long lasting enough to rub our noses in whatever opinions we so brashly got behind too early. Professors and peasants alike. We're more likely to…

Nah, it’s very easy to selectively forget what you ended up being wrong about and remember what you got right (or close enough to pretend it was right). I was wearing an n95 mask in the grocery store starting March 1st last year, there was no reason at that point to think it wouldn’t help and I still can’t comprehend why someone like Fauci who said in no uncertain terms not to wear a mask, it won’t help never faced a…

> I still can’t comprehend why someone like Fauci who said in no uncertain terms not to wear a mask, it won’t help never faced any repercussions

May I ask what exactly you were hoping for here?

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#892

Post by ineedasername »

conk wrote: post #615
ineedasername wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like they should divert a small part of their output to keeping a small battery backup just in case of emergencies. Then in an emergency the battery could reignite the system and run the blowers with the furnace again diverting some output to keeping things charged.

You would need the generator to provide about 100 watts to run the electronics and blower. Something passive like a thermoelectric generator would require a large amount of surface area to get this much power. Something more active like a traditional generator would require significant maintenance. If you’re really concerned your best bet is to get a couple Powerwalls and limit what you run off them. You could go a w…

Power walls are pretty expensive. Much cheaper-- if you're primary concern is keep heat going and maybe a few other basics-- would be a low-maintenance dual fuel generator. Unlike the powerwall it's run-time isn't limited. Prolonged blackouts will run the powerwall dry, but with a dual fuel generator as long as you can get gasoline or propane you're good to go.

I suppose if you can afford it, go for both and have multiple reduncancy.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#894

Post by da_big_ghey »

pixl97 wrote: post #755
da_big_ghey wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first time since the eighties that we have had weather this cold. Edit: why u booing me? I'm right!

What happened to 2011?

We didn't have a situation like this, though it was a close call power-wise.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#895

Post by gregw2 »

roenxi wrote: post #782
gregw2 wrote: post #117

What went wrong is that the Texas legislature which owns Texas-specific grid process to avoid interference from the Feds didn't figure out how to also ensure Texas generator companies got compensated for weatherizing (and ensuring it was done). How many of the 24+6 recommendations from the NERC/FERC review of last time this happened in Texas (hint:2011) were taken up by the legislature or those at ERCOT they delegate…

It is annoying when this sort of event happens and everyone starts deciding what they believe to be truth within 48 hours of the outage. It makes more sense to be talking about the 2011 outages in terms of what went wrong than the 2021 ones - because we have actual information on 2011 instead of "things went wrong!" now. I want to thank you personally for injecting a PDF into the discussion, but also positively asser…

From an engineering standpoint, I agree that you want a true RCA and this event's RCA will be a bit different than 2011's. And this RCA (and its political consequences) will take time, doesn't need to be done right this minute, etc etc.

However, this problem is not at its root an engineering one; it is political. While the public attention is on this, we should point attention as close as possible to the most likely cause given the information we have at the time. It's bayesian truth and bayesian politics.

You'll note I didn't draw conclusions about which recommendations were ignored but having read through them all, there is no way they were all actually followed and we ended up where we are. I think some basics are fairly obvious. While some winterization perhaps was done, there is some degree of winterization that was never done; power plants in other states far north of us and colder than us are not having the same types of problems. Various professors in various cities in Texas who follow this stuff confirm this in various news outlets I haven't cited here. I also wouldn't be surprised if there was were issues with gas transport from wells through pipelines to plants that were noted in 2011 but much more severe this time due to even colder temps and unexpected by all. But still...

At the end of the day, Texas has optimized for cheap power and has not funded the work of reliable power. This is a political decision at the end of the day due to companies not paying for their externalities of poor service. I'm open to saying we shouldn't blame follower-type politicians who were scared of "raising electrical rates" and we should blame ourselves, but let's all acknowledge that some costs that weren't borne should have been borne and some oversight that should have occurred didn't occur. Is that so hard to concede at this early juncture?

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#896

Post by dghlsakjg »

theshrike79 wrote: post #791
paraselene_ wrote: post #780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you know, instead of having a whole fireplace, just get a kerosene heater? Enough to heat a whole room in case of power&gas outages, last long enough through the night on one fill, and kerosene can be had at a gas station.

Pretty much anything actually built to heat stuff is better than the all-looks-no-function "fireplaces" the Americans seem to be in love with. The ones they like to mount their TVs over, despite the neck pain.

You are stereotyping a country of hundreds of millions that spans climate zones ranging from Hawaiian tropics to the arctic circle.

Yeah. There are decorative fireplaces. The Norwegian company Rais sells some great decorative ones.

There are also incredibly efficient cast iron stoves that some people use for heat. You made fun of them in another comment, but they are much more efficient than a fireplace, and can use a variety of fuels like pellets or gas in addition to wood.

Of course, there are also people that have a standard wood fireplace that you imply is in every Norwegian home. Most people don’t use them here since they are so inefficient, dangerous and illegal in cities due to the pollution.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#897

Post by IOT_Apprentice »

cactus2093 wrote: post #887
dalbasal wrote: post #853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is meta/tangent, but I've had similar conversations a few times recently. Seems to be in the zeitgeist. Re: everyone starts deciding what they believe to be truth within 48 hours of the outage. Maybe, hopefully... the epidemic is humbling us. It's been significant and long lasting enough to rub our noses in whatever opinions we so brashly got behind too early. Professors and peasants alike. We're more likely to…

Nah, it’s very easy to selectively forget what you ended up being wrong about and remember what you got right (or close enough to pretend it was right). I was wearing an n95 mask in the grocery store starting March 1st last year, there was no reason at that point to think it wouldn’t help and I still can’t comprehend why someone like Fauci who said in no uncertain terms not to wear a mask, it won’t help never faced a…

I would say it is Americans that are not rational or good at accountability from a cultural perspective.

If you ever have the opportunity to visit Japan and see people wearing masks when they have a cold or flu on normal days. We don't do that. Heck, we are in a work culture where it is a bad thing to take days off when you are ill.

If you look at other countries where the government and the populace take pandemics seriously and lock down.

You see governors here being proud about not adhering to COVID-19 Protocols. You see Police in major cities of the country REFUSING to wear masks or intentionally wearing them wrong. You hear of them refusing to get the vaccine, when they are prioritized to do so.

You see a Pandemic become politicized because an incompetent man was President and it was part of his brand to not deal with it or set an example.

You have certain epidemiologists telling school teachers to get back to work and teach his daughters because, well only a small number of them will die from COVID, so get the fuck back to work.

I could go on, but it is what it is.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#898

Post by ineedasername »

JamesBarney wrote: post #717
WillPostForFood wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right if they were trying to reduce load 50%, that's basically impossible for the reasons you mention. They were only trying to get it down 20% and it might have worked if they could have effectively rolled the blackouts. A lot of people have natural gas heat. It doesn't work when the power is out (no ignition, no thermostat, and no fan), but doesn't put a huge load on the electric grid when it is on. For a w…

I don't know about North Texas but I don't think gas furnaces are that common in Houston or Austin.

Propane gas is relatively common, but wither way:

1) Natural gas has been a problem because the moisture in it has been freezing pipes

2) The cold has caused the pressure in propane tanks to drop, impairing their functionality.

None of this might have been a huge problem if Texas didn't keep its power grid almost completely separate from the rest of the country. That has meant they can't easily bring in capacity to cover their own lack. Though even moderate winterization would probably have significantly reduced the problems. It's not like they have to prepare for continuous -10 F.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#899

Post by Mauricebranagh »

trentnix wrote: post #880
Mauricebranagh wrote: post #844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once every two years FFS this makes the Handforth Parish Council look Good.

It’s not a bug. It’s the best feature.

Apart from the holding the executive to account part of democracy.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#900

Post by IOT_Apprentice »

shireboy wrote: post #869
roenxi wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is annoying when this sort of event happens and everyone starts deciding what they believe to be truth within 48 hours of the outage. It makes more sense to be talking about the 2011 outages in terms of what went wrong than the 2021 ones - because we have actual information on 2011 instead of "things went wrong!" now. I want to thank you personally for injecting a PDF into the discussion, but also positively asser…

I agree and have been feeling this more lately. You know this is already being politicized. Armchair investigators are suddenly becoming power grid experts. The complex reality of balancing a huge diverse power grid is becoming an “easy” problem - if only the evil other side had done what my media source and politician said they should! It’s tricky - I also have a problem waiting months for a slow inefficient governm…

This country politicizes everything, rather than dealing with it, because you have some people who have financial interests that make money off the existing situation. For many, it is part of a belief system, rather than dealing with it from policy and engineering perspectives.

We don't deal with school shooting massacres here right after they occur. We don't deal with them after they happen.

What stopped school shootings? Not having children in schools.

You just had a group of militias, white supremacists et al, invade a branch of government, terrorize they staff, representatives and security--and nothing comes of it in terms of accountability and responsibility by Trump.

You have those on the political right saying nothing big happened. You have people whining why is the national guard still there?

As a nation, we don't prioritize efficiency, competence and reaction time. We don't want to measure and improve our infrastructure and policies.

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