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Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

theguardian.com

881–890 of 894 posts

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#881
post #878

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islamic conquests - not Arab. It’s worth remembering that the longest-lasting Caliphate was the Ottoman Caliphate. As I’ve noted, Islam transcends race and ethnicity. Scholars have acknowledged that mistakes were made by some during these conquests, but such actions were contrary to the core teachings of Islam and have been openly recognized as such. What is happening in occupied Palestine today—witnessed by the worl…

> Islamic conquests - not Arab. The Arab Empire's conquests are called both Muslim conquests or Arab conquests ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests ). > It’s worth remembering that the longest-lasting Caliphate was the Ottoman Caliphate. As I’ve noted, Islam transcends race and ethnicity. Yes, but I was talking specifically about the Arab conquests that preceded the Ottoman Empire by centuries. The…

> The Arab Empire's conquests are called both Muslim conquests or Arab conquests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests).

If you look at the citation for the latter designation, you will see that it is a non-Muslim/non-Arab source. Never have I heard the term (الفتوحات العربية) in any proper source.

As far as I know "Arab conquests" is a modern phrasing used in English (orientalist historiography). It reflects the ethnic origin of the initial armies (mostly Arab tribes) but is not how pre-modern Muslim sources described them.

> Yes, but I was talking specifically about the Arab conquests that preceded the Ottoman Empire by centuries

If you mean the Rashidun, Umayyad, or Abbasid Caliphates, then those were not simply "Arabian" empires - they were Islamic. Non-Arab peoples were deeply involved at every stage. The unifying goal wasn't to spread Arab nationalism but the spread of Islam.

> Not only is that obviously not even remotely true, but the Arab Empire conquered and colonised the Levant, Maghreb, and Europe's Iberian Peninsula centuries before the crusades

They certainly conquered territory, yes. But the term "colonization" (especially with the European background involved) is very loaded, if not misleading. Unlike European colonialism, which involved stealing natural resources, dispossession, and often depopulation - Islamic conquests generally integrated local populations as I previously pointed out. Andalus was ruled by a combination of Arabs, Berbers, and large numbers of local converts. Likewise, in the Levant and Maghreb, indigenous societies weren't replaced or erased. They remained, adapted, and in many cases thrived under Islamic rule.

> Nothing justifies mass killings, and each of those atrocities stands on its own.

Agreed. But my point was that the Western-backed Israeli regime and WWII Germany share a disturbing structural resemblance: both are rooted in ethno-supremacist, ethnic-cleansing ideologies, and both commit mass killings against civilian populations. At least the nazis tried to hide their crimes; the israeli regime doesn’t even bother, and they boast about it (there are countless video interviews and confessions of israeli soliders that affirm this - several recent ones of israeli soldiers confessing their PTSD symptoms in court because of their crimes are very telling and distrurbing). The so-called "allies" hardly had clean hands either, their own history of indiscriminate mass killings during WWII (firebombing cities, nuclear attacks, colonial massacres) shows the same willingness to treat civilian life as expendable.

On a side note, what happened in Syria was a direct result of French colonial policy when they and Britain colonized the Levant, and israel is trying to follow the exact same play book in post-liberation Syria today. I won't get started on Lebanon either.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#882

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1400 years ? it was a creation of the second world war, but anyway regarding neighbors you mean other than bombing iran, syria, yemen, lebanon I believe in all these cases israel attacked first and thats in the past 12months. I think your point was meant to be more that Israel has a right to defend its self and I think most people and countries would back Israel in that right if the response had been proportionate. i…

> it was a creation of the second world war The modern state of Israel with its present borders were a creation of the Second World War. But if you go back in time to ~1000 BC, Jewish people occupied the entire region (much broader than just Israel), and they are the only surviving indigenous people of the region. This isn’t even controversial. Virtually all historians and scholars acknowledge this because there is l…

Good points.

You will probably also like to know that the plans for a modern Israel started long before WW2 and Holocaust, and originally not because of persecution of Jews by Europeans in Europe but because of persecution of Jews by Arabs in the middle East.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#883

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is a conflict that the victim can choose to end anytime they want isn't a genocide, no matter how UN tries to twist one of the legal definitions into something that can be interpretated as one.

Boy I would love to hear how the innocent Palestinians who are starving and whose homes have been destroyed can end this conflict at any time.

Returning the hostages.

Admit that 07th of October 2023 wasn't their greatest idea ever (their official position is that it is, but also just a taste of what is to come.)

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#884
post #878

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Islamic conquests - not Arab. The Arab Empire's conquests are called both Muslim conquests or Arab conquests ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests ). > It’s worth remembering that the longest-lasting Caliphate was the Ottoman Caliphate. As I’ve noted, Islam transcends race and ethnicity. Yes, but I was talking specifically about the Arab conquests that preceded the Ottoman Empire by centuries. The…

> The Arab Empire's conquests are called both Muslim conquests or Arab conquests ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests ). If you look at the citation for the latter designation, you will see that it is a non-Muslim/non-Arab source. Never have I heard the term (الفتوحات العربية) in any proper source. As far as I know "Arab conquests" is a modern phrasing used in English (orientalist historiography). I…

> If you mean the Rashidun, Umayyad, or Abbasid Caliphates, then those were not simply "Arabian" empires - they were Islamic. Non-Arab peoples were deeply involved at every stage. The unifying goal wasn't to spread Arab nationalism but the spread of Islam.

Well, nationalism is a very modern concept, and things gets murky once we go further back. The very same could be said about applying the moniker "European" to the Roman Empire or even to the crusades. They were no more European than the Arab conquests were Arab.

> But the term "colonization" (especially with the European background involved) is very loaded, if not misleading.

That's true, but that would also apply to Israel and Zionism. There is no kind of European colonialism - of the settler or non-settler variety - that would cleanly apply. Even the Jews living in Europe who were the ancestors of a minority of Israeli Jews, created the Zionist movement because Jews were not considered European or Western by their environment.

The point is that in history, there are often important similarities and important differences, and we need to be careful when it comes to the extent of comparisons.

> both are rooted in ethno-supremacist, ethnic-cleansing ideologies, and both commit mass killings against civilian populations

Yes, and the same, of course, applies to Arab nationalism, which, at least in part, expressly allied itself with Nazi Germany.

There are many prisms of historical analysis. You can look at similarities or at differences; you can look in a specific era or across era. But if you apply different prisms to different groups and then compare them, it starts looking as less of an attempt of historical understanding and more as an attempt to use history carelessly to judge the politics of the present.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was never a country called Israel until 1948. It was always Palestine. The idea of a nation called Israel is the invention of Zionists in the 19th and 20th century.

> There was never a country called Israel until 1948. It was always Palestine. Palestine was never a country before 1948, immediately prior to 1948 there was a British Mandate[0] with the name Palestine, but this mandate included land that would eventually turn into countries like Jordan(which just so happens to be a country with a Palestinian majority population). After 1948 and before 1967 the West Bank was annexed…

Israel was formed by invading Palestine, murdering Palestinians and forcing them to migrate.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#886
post #885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was never a country called Israel until 1948. It was always Palestine. Palestine was never a country before 1948, immediately prior to 1948 there was a British Mandate[0] with the name Palestine, but this mandate included land that would eventually turn into countries like Jordan(which just so happens to be a country with a Palestinian majority population). After 1948 and before 1967 the West Bank was annexed…

Israel was formed by invading Palestine, murdering Palestinians and forcing them to migrate.

Jewish immigration to Palestine was initially accomplished by buying land from Arab landowners during the time when it was ruled by the Ottoman Empire.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#887
post #885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel was formed by invading Palestine, murdering Palestinians and forcing them to migrate.

Jewish immigration to Palestine was initially accomplished by buying land from Arab landowners during the time when it was ruled by the Ottoman Empire.

Is that why millions of Palestinians are refugees in other countries?

Israel's founding principles are mass murder and invasion.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#888
post #887

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jewish immigration to Palestine was initially accomplished by buying land from Arab landowners during the time when it was ruled by the Ottoman Empire.

Is that why millions of Palestinians are refugees in other countries? Israel's founding principles are mass murder and invasion.

> Is that why millions of Palestinians are refugees in other countries?

Palestinian refugees are defined differently by the UN vs essentially all other refugees.

Palestinian refugees fall under the UNRWA while normal refugees(i.e. refugees from essentially all other countries) fall under the UNHCR. The UNRWA definition is hereditary while the UNHCR definition is not. This hereditary definition is largely why the Palestinian refugee populations can increase over time in other countries so easily vs normal refugees.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#889
post #887

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that why millions of Palestinians are refugees in other countries? Israel's founding principles are mass murder and invasion.

> Is that why millions of Palestinians are refugees in other countries? Palestinian refugees are defined differently by the UN vs essentially all other refugees. Palestinian refugees fall under the UNRWA while normal refugees(i.e. refugees from essentially all other countries) fall under the UNHCR. The UNRWA definition is hereditary while the UNHCR definition is not. This hereditary definition is largely why the Pale…

no matter how you define it, those people had to run away from Palestine because of Israeli murderers.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#890
post #889

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is that why millions of Palestinians are refugees in other countries? Palestinian refugees are defined differently by the UN vs essentially all other refugees. Palestinian refugees fall under the UNRWA while normal refugees(i.e. refugees from essentially all other countries) fall under the UNHCR. The UNRWA definition is hereditary while the UNHCR definition is not. This hereditary definition is largely why the Pale…

no matter how you define it, those people had to run away from Palestine because of Israeli murderers.

> those people had to run away from Palestine because of Israeli murderers

There were multiple reason they(or their ancestors) left, there was plenty of violence when Israel was created but it wasn't like it was just one side attacking either. Regardless it's quite strange that someone is still considered a refugee despite potentially having never even been to the country they are supposedly a refugee from, especially since that doesn't happen for refugees from other countries(at least with how the UN defines refugee).

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