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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#881

Post by [deleted] »

Apocryphon wrote: post #838
oneplane wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Counter-culture is supposed to be [... list of stuff...] No, it's not. The words explain themselves perfectly fine: an opposing culture. What you describe boils down to being irrationally angry, stunted in various ways, and generally destructive... It's not a counter-culture but just counter-productive and essentially a defect. If anything, it is devoid of culture. And just in case someone takes "counter-productive…

> What you describe boils down to being irrationally angry, stunted in various ways, and generally destructive Like punks? Mods and rockers? Beatniks? Greasers?

[deleted]

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#882

Post by zassy »

bawolff wrote: post #875
oneplane wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Counter-culture is supposed to be [... list of stuff...] No, it's not. The words explain themselves perfectly fine: an opposing culture. What you describe boils down to being irrationally angry, stunted in various ways, and generally destructive... It's not a counter-culture but just counter-productive and essentially a defect. If anything, it is devoid of culture. And just in case someone takes "counter-productive…

> being irrationally angry, stunted in various ways, and generally destructive I don't like 4-chan but isn't that what they said about hippies? That they are stunted (e.g. they spend all their time smoking pot instead of cutting their hair, getting a job and being productive members of society. They are irrationally angry at society and refuse to recognize the grim realities of the real world. They are destructively…

You don’t get it man. The counter culture is cool, hip and trendy and I’m a cool, hip and trendy kind of guy. I’m part of the counterculture, and I’m not part of 4chan, so obviously they’re not counterculture.

The fact that my views align much closer than theirs with many mainstream political parties, almost all of academia, most major media outlets and most major corporation’s stated values is because they all are also part of the counter culture now.

There’s literally no way that an awesome, too cool rebel like myself somehow became part of the mainstream instead of the hip and trendy counter culture movement.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#883

Post by kelseyfrog »

mshake2 wrote: post #873
bglazer wrote: post #862

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being LGBTQ is one of the few identities or choices that will result in being disowned by a significant portion of American families. That attitude is edging out of the mainstream but it’s practically dogma among evangelicals and other socially conservative groups. So yes, those people do live in a different reality, where Biden admin policy and “Will and Grace” don’t matter at all.

You're making an emotional argument (LGBTQ people get disowned by families) against a logical argument (LGBTQ is supported at so many levels of culture that it no longer counts as "counterculture").

We only need to make a compelling virtuous argument and we'll have the Greek trifecta!

Pathos, Logos, and Ethos

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#884

Post by CaptainFever »

Jensson wrote: post #171
hutzlibu wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you believe gay people for example, are a threat to a healthy and balanced society? edit: Oh and conservative culture in my land means mostly lots of alcohol. The first time I vomitted from alcohol was as a teenager on a catholic wine fest, by wine gifted to us from the church. There might be conservatives, that are free from drugs, but mostly they just like other drugs. Drugs are a big problem in todays societ…

I think a lot of anti-gay thoughts today are more anti gay culture, such as many of the things people do and display in the pride parade that has nothing to do with liking people of the same sex.

Oh, that makes sense. I have other gay friends that express the same concern privately. In my country (no gay rights yet; it just got decriminalised) I tend to say that "the best gay pride protest is no gay pride protest", because if we have equal rights, there's no need to protest, and we just want equal rights.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#885

Post by bongle »

irrational wrote: post #305
undersuit wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is ridiculous, LGBTQ is a minority. Trads are part of a waning majority. All evidence points towards LGBTQ always existing but just becoming more open. Trads being Counter Culture? That's the same double speak that gets us Citizens United and Right to Work. Where did these trads get their radically traditional values? From the majority.

It is a minority, but if I go into work and announce that I am trans and will now be transitioning and my name is now X, people will fall all over themselves be supportive and congratulating me. It literally happened recently when Chris became Christina at my work. But, if I come in and announce that I have decided to become Catholic or Evangelical or Mormon there will be a lot of awkward silence with maybe some "oka…

In a society that actually respected women, people would be falling over themselves to call out his misogynistic delusion that being a woman can amount to a thought in a man's head. But sadly not. That's male privilege for you.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#886

Post by RhysabOweyn »

oneplane wrote: post #740
Perceval wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels This is the counter-culture. The dominant culture opposes all of these things and makes obligatory the celebration of the opposite values. 4chan being one of the few lightly-restricted free speech zones allows for culture generation that would be censored anywhere else. Counter-culture is supposed to be edgy, just like jazz and rock were edgy, grea…

> Counter-culture is supposed to be [... list of stuff...] No, it's not. The words explain themselves perfectly fine: an opposing culture. What you describe boils down to being irrationally angry, stunted in various ways, and generally destructive... It's not a counter-culture but just counter-productive and essentially a defect. If anything, it is devoid of culture. And just in case someone takes "counter-productive…

> What you describe boils down to being irrationally angry, stunted in various ways, and generally destructive... It's not a counter-culture but just counter-productive and essentially a defect. If anything, it is devoid of culture.

Just because something isn't PC doesn't mean it isn't counter-culture. Hip-hop for example is riddled with extremely homophobic, violent, and sexist content but has become by far the biggest music genre in the world. That doesn't mean it isn't culture and it definitely was counter-culture (at least in the 80's and 90's).

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#887

Post by yterdy »

at-w wrote: post #704
koprulusector wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

"I don't think anyone will look back with fondness or positivity towards a bunch of drug-pushing, mentally stunted adulterous freeloaders that disrespect hard working people, people putting their lives on the line for their country, people devoted to their families, and the nation that allows them the freedom to exist in the first place--while jerking themselves into a froth over who's the edgiest edge lord." Even as…

>Nearly every major social issue of the late 20th century exploded as a direct result of hippie culture bringing drugs and hostility towards the family and social institutions into the mainstream.

This is quite reductive and ignores the role of dysfunction emerging from within families and institutional structures, including, but not limited to:

>The psychological and public health effects of widespread lead poisoning

>The psychological effects of family patriachs often being psychologically-scarred veterans, for whom drug use was sometimes prescribed by the military

>The artificial and contentious "community" of planned suburbs, which warped the character of family life while saddling local and state governments with debt traps which diverted funds from social services

>The intentional breakup of existing urban communities through "renewal", starting in the 50s

>The "benign neglect" of the remains of these communities following the King riots

Much like Reconstruction and TARP, the problem isn't that we did it, it's that we didn't do it hard enough.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#888

Post by zassy »

mschuster91 wrote: post #777
Perceval wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels This is the counter-culture. The dominant culture opposes all of these things and makes obligatory the celebration of the opposite values. 4chan being one of the few lightly-restricted free speech zones allows for culture generation that would be censored anywhere else. Counter-culture is supposed to be edgy, just like jazz and rock were edgy, grea…

[flagged]

Sid Vicious, Marilyn Manson, Alice Cooper and many other artists who were undebatably part of counterculture very often did stuff to intentionally offend members of mainstream culture.

Manson did a ton of stuff to piss off Christians and rightoids. While it might seem hilarious with modern day sensibilities, Rage saying fuck on BBC live did offend quite a lot of people. Hell, Sid Vicious and Siouxsie Sioux used to regularly wear literal Swastikas for the shock value.

None of this shit is new.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#889

Post by moistly »

PuppyTailWags wrote: post #421
dogleash wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal status is terrible standard for whether something is counter culture. Outlawing something is neither necessary nor sufficient to be counterculture. Some legal and cultural boundaries overlap, some are orthogonal. There are a great many subcultures that would like legal boundaries shifted, and when they care enough they become interest groups participating in the democratic process. Even the blandest bland bland…

Subculture vs counterculture makes sense. I'd be curious what counterculture is and how it differentiates from subculture then, if we're not going to measure if institutions exist that are actively trying to outlaw a culture.

A subculture is generally hidden from the mainstream culture. Few are those who display their BDSM subculture in obvious public fashion.

A counterculture is in the face of the mainstream culture, trying to change the cult. It is countering the mainstream. It is activist or, at the least, unabashed with the intention of normalization.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#890

Post by nebula8804 »

alldayeveryday wrote: post #265
drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

Another hard agree. I always get a good laugh when people in queer culture claim to be living a counter culture lifestyle. Meanwhile the US state department is flying the queer flag at its embassies around the world and using it to agitate foreign conservative cultures. I nominate being an unapologetic white male as the counter culture of our current time. Just watch how many downvotes you'll get on any social media…

>Meanwhile the US state department is flying the queer flag at its embassies around the world and using it to agitate foreign conservative cultures.

Oh come on, that is not their main goal. Its all a scam to cover up things like unchecked military spending/war, unchecked government corruption at the corporate level among many other things.

There is a reason why this meme continues to float around the web.

[1]:https://i.imgur.com/dmzLLKe.png

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