Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#881

Post by dannyw » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

tdeck wrote: post #488

k-mcgrady wrote: post #60

"Cook wrapped up the memo by saying that he's looking forward to seeing employee faces. "I know I'm not alone in missing the hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration of our in-person meetings and the sense of community we've all built," he wrote." CEO's all spout the same nonsense. The majority of people work because they need to earn money. They're not working to make a new 'family' or change the wo…

I wonder if some part of this is the ego trip of seeing your workers in your building working for you . As an executive, that's got to be more fulfilling than looking at some OKR slides and an employee roster. I don't believe this is the only motivator but it's surely somewhere in the mix.

How about the fact that executives are regular people, who (1) have their human emotions, including possibly a natural desire to have in-person interaction with the people they work with, and (2) listen to other employees, some of which are in the pro-office camp (as seen in this HN thread)?

Executives ain't some mystical species. They are regular people in a position of power.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#882

Post by perfectstorm » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

timdaub wrote: post #746

Let's see how it goes for them. I'd bet it's going to be a disaster. That time I was asked to appear in the office of my employer after years of home office, that catapulted me into a burnout after just a few weeks. See, working from home allows you to be comfortable with yourself and your body. You organize yourself to do as much work as you deem useful to meet your goals. It allows you to take a ten minute nap or j…

Lot of the people who work at Apple are drinking the Apple kool aid and will put up with any requirement.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#883

Post by licebmi__at__ » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

DrBenCarson wrote: post #755

benrbray wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is yet to be determined, but even if you're right, it still promotes a different kind of inequality. Remote work is strongly biased in favor of those with the resources to have a nice, distraction-free office setup at home, and towards those who are already established in their careers.

Not to mention how it advantages people who can afford after school child care. An all-remote workforce is on its way to being an all-male workforce. Female employment is already decades behind where it was pre-pandemic. The single male echo chamber on here is unnerving.

This is a weird take. I spend a year almost exclusively raising my son because my wife was studying to be a sub-specialist on another city and she only had a full weekend once a month. The first thing I did once we had a plan, was to negotiate partial home-office, because even if I could have after school child care, I certainly was not for it. Two months in, the partial home office became full home office because even the commute could throw a wrench on my tight schedule.

Based on my experience, raising a kid on your own is difficult, and without home office would have been even worse.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#884

Post by dannyw » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #573

Elora wrote: post #319

Some here are being honest, so I'll be brutally honest: Covid has upset the master-slave relationship, and they're realizing they're giving up too much control. Yes, even the supposedly forward-thinking, progressive tech world. It's so much easier to ignore the BS of "company culture," "a new family" and other such nonsense when working remote. Plenty of people here have outright stated they work as a way to fund the…

Bingo. People who lead companies are not wired like the rest of us. It's not some bullshit about mission or impact. Executives are there for power. Power is the sweat under a subordinate's arms when you address them. Power is having control over the bodies of others when you tell them where to be, how long to be there, where to sit and how to dress. Power is having roomfuls of people in rapt attention to you. Power i…

I have worked in tech a while, including knowing a number of executives (prior and post them being executives), and I don't know a single one who is 'in it for the power' and feeling good because they can tell employees where to sit and how to dress (or getting sex from subordinates!).

They're in it because they love making big impacts, having authority to make _big_ decisions, not watching people sit down in chairs.

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I am worried about where you work. What you are describing is not normal.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#885

Post by dannyw » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

woutr_be wrote: post #644

Elora wrote: post #319

Some here are being honest, so I'll be brutally honest: Covid has upset the master-slave relationship, and they're realizing they're giving up too much control. Yes, even the supposedly forward-thinking, progressive tech world. It's so much easier to ignore the BS of "company culture," "a new family" and other such nonsense when working remote. Plenty of people here have outright stated they work as a way to fund the…

I agree. And as an introvert, working from home has actually made work more fun. I never liked sitting in a room with other people, nor did I like going out for lunch with my colleagues or having to do small talk face to face. I hated having to walk up to colleagues that I didn't know, just to ask them a few questions. All these things are completely gone when working from home. I can focus on my work, get the job do…

What do you think an extrovert might say? They might miss the face to face interaction, the spontaneous discussions that may happen over lunch, or the gathering between colleagues that might happen over a weekend.

I respect that those may not appeal to you, and they don't have to, but some people find work in-person more fun. If that's not you, there are plenty of forever-remote companies to get a job at.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#886

Post by sam0x17 » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

ripper1138 wrote: post #212

sam0x17 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny, all of the things you mention are things I would cite as perks of working remotely at my current org. I guess it depends on how you implement remote work. For example we typically have multiple departments running one or more "open calls" all day that anyone can wander into and hear what's going on. Engineering in particular makes heavy use of this, especially those who like pair programming.

Do people join the open calls just for specific reasons? Or do they join all day? An open call is a half decent alternative during forced WFH but it’s not the same. Random hallway conversations are just that: random. An open call wouldn’t be the same unless everyone was in the call all day.

People who like to do that sit in it all day. If there are multiple conversations going on they will split into the 2nd and 3rd channels. Some people like to hear the breathing and typing of their colleagues all day, some do not.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#887

Post by sam0x17 » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

ripper1138 wrote: post #237

sam0x17 wrote: post #170

Curious to see how many quit over this. A lot in the tech industry (myself included) seem completely done with not working from home, especially when there is no excuse for working in-person. Tech offices for pure-software projects have also become morally indefensible from the perspective of resource consumption and climate change. That said it's true that Apple does do some R&D that requires an in-person presence,…

That’s a very cynical take. Morally indefensible? That’s an incredible hyperbole. People may quit sure but CEOs are responsible for getting value to share holders and many honestly do believe that in office or hybrid model works toward that goal. If it was only about office space they could write that off and be done with it.

It shouldn't be hyperbolic, but that's the world we live in. CEOs have even less of an excuse to not work from home.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#888

Post by tachyonbeam » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

pnutjam wrote: post #877

Nbox9 wrote: post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

Sounds like you need an environment with better collaboration tools and people who know how to communicate. I was getting a slew of emails related to a project and after a bit of coaching I got most of these updates to go into a teams channel, where we can call out the interested part @user, and keep things in an easier to view format when we need to catch up.

Working remotely will never be as good for communication IMO. You can set up weekly one-on-ones over your favorite videoconference platform, but there's just so much you can't see being physically separated from your coworkers.

At my previous job, I would bond with my teammates over lunch talking about random things, bouncing ideas, and I feel like we really were a team. We trusted each other. At my new, 100% remote job, sometimes my colleagues are just tuned out, and I have no idea why. I can ask them over our weekly videochat, but it's just not the same. We don't have the same level of trust. I can't read their body language. We can't just have a random 5 minute chat over coffee. Brainstorming online has also proven to be really ineffective. It works really well over lunch, with no stress and no expectations, but planning a brainstorming meeting really can't offer that.

IMO remote work is very weird and dehumanizing. You might feel differently. I know it works for some people, but I really feel like the cohesion in my team is nowhere near as good. Yet I feel like if we were in the same office in person we'd be doing much better.

My ideal balance is 4 days of in-person work and one remote day per week, with flexible working hours.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#889

Post by dannyw » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

someonehere wrote: post #343

Elora wrote: post #319

Some here are being honest, so I'll be brutally honest: Covid has upset the master-slave relationship, and they're realizing they're giving up too much control. Yes, even the supposedly forward-thinking, progressive tech world. It's so much easier to ignore the BS of "company culture," "a new family" and other such nonsense when working remote. Plenty of people here have outright stated they work as a way to fund the…

I agree. Those looking to force everyone back into the office want to prove their worth in front of everyone else. I hate the idea of how some companies try and position the company as your second family. “No I’m here to do what I do to find my life outside of here.”

I know a number of execs at various tech companies and honestly this talk does not reflect my reality or experiences whatsoever.

Execs generally optimize for impact and success, and while their paths may not always be correct, I don' really know a single one who primarily wants to prove their worth in front of everyone else.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#890

Post by crossroadsguy » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

winrid wrote: post #555

crossroadsguy wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had a stronger work/life separation. I rarely turned on my work laptop at home. This is single biggest reason I want to go back to office. In fact it already has started to feel weird that my home is my work place as well. Even if my work place remains fully remote I’ll find some other place to work from but never some place as shitty as WeWork. Maybe I will rent a cheaper smaller place nearby if I don’t find a s…

Have you tried setting boundaries and being disciplined about it? I've had to tell people - I won't reply after 5, and no meetings then. People still tried to setup 530, even 730pm meetings all the time (not even during crunch time). Instant decline lol We don't make enough time for our own lives. Hell, it's hard enough to find time to actually make an enjoy a dinner.

I already do that.

I still don’t want my home also as a work place.